Last Lakers game was Elgin Baylor night. If you havent seen how good he was DO IT NOW

[hawksdreamfan44]

He is one of the most underrated players of all-time.

[3ball]

It was a very simple and a very wise rule; a defender could stay between his player and the basket but not camp.

you completely changed the wording of the rule - that is not necessary - the rule said "defender on a player adjacent to the paint is allowed in the 3 seconds lane".

the rule doesn't need you to change it - it clearly states that a defender "is allowed in 3 seconds lane".

so just use actual quotes from the rule - don't insert your own words to replace the words of the rule.

not only does the rule itself state that defenders are "allowed in the 3 seconds lane", but naturally, the video backs up the rule - defenders camped right under the basket in previous eras plain as day...

today, defenders must actively make efforts to keep the lane clear by tippy-toeing in and out of the lane, which happens on every possession - this forces help defenders to come from further distances than a guy that is camping right there under the basket.

[3ball]

You can be sure if Jordan played today, the guy who in your gifs is in the middle of the lane, he would be totally across the lane outside the block just waiting for MJ and another guy would be on the weakside guarding 2 players untill ball reversal happens.

this is fine, but Jordan was an off-ball player, so he would have been one of the guys benefiting on the weakside from a wide open paint - you said it yourself bolded above - the weakside defender that went over to the strongside, has to go all the way over and outside of the paint; they can't camp right under the basket like previous eras.

your example demonstrates how defenders have to help from OUTSIDE the paint in today's game, as opposed to being able to wait under the basket like previous eras - today's setup hurts the ballhandler in some situations as you described, but it's an off-ball player's dream - the entire point of playing off-ball is to beat the defender to a spot, which is a lot harder if the defender is already waiting there like in previous eras.

in this era, it's natural to assume that jordan would at least match the lane penetration ability of today's best wings, and his pull-up game is by far GOAT, so he'd do that better than say, durant, and even prime kobe... but more importantly, with a clear lane and no defenders waiting under the rim, his real bread-and-butter off-ball game would be easier than ever before.

so again, jordan dealt with tougher paint defense in his eras, because there was always a man waiting at the rim - defenders didn't have to help from outside the paint like they do today, as the league intended - i suppose when the league said the new 3 seconds rule was meant to "open up the game", they meant "open up the LANE".

[La Frescobaldi]

you completely changed the wording of the rule - that is not necessary - the rule said "defender on a player adjacent to the paint is allowed in the 3 seconds lane".

the rule doesn't need you to change it - it clearly states that a defender "is allowed in 3 seconds lane".

so just use actual quotes from the rule - don't insert your own words to replace the words of the rule.

not only does the rule itself state that defenders are "allowed in the 3 seconds lane", but naturally, the video backs up the rule - defenders camped right under the basket in previous eras plain as day...

today, defenders must actively make efforts to keep the lane clear by tippy-toeing in and out of the lane, which happens on every possession - this forces help defenders to come from further distances than a guy that is camping right there under the basket.

True and a good point.

[3ball]

True and a good point.

for players with truly elite skill levels, athleticism matters very little.

for example, dirk is so immensely skilled as a scorer, that his skill more than offsets his athleticism deficit.... ditto for Pierce... ditto for Bird and Magic, and they added a passing aspect to those elite skills.

which brings us to elgin baylor... elgin had the same elite skill that allows pierce, dirk and bird to not need athleticism, but elgin was in a different class athletically - he was incredibly quick with an athletic, shifty style, and a stronger, firmer body that could get 20 rebounds per game... his barkley-like strength doesn't fully come through on the grainy tape.

by all indications, elgin was at least a material step up from pierce .. (most of the gifs below are elgin finishing on #6 bill russell:




















...poster over bill russell

[3ball]

which brings us to elgin baylor... elgin had the same elite skill that allows pierce, dirk and bird to not need athleticism, but elgin was in a different class athletically - he was incredibly quick with an athletic, shifty style, and a stronger, firmer body that could get 20 rebounds per game... his barkley-like strength doesn't fully come through on the grainy tape.

by all indications, elgin was at least a material step up from pierce .. (most of the gifs below are elgin finishing on #6 bill russell:

speaking of paul pierce (and how elgin was much better - a different type of athlete that was much quicker and had a firm, strong body capable of getting 20 rebounds per game) - espn ran a stat tonight showing how lebron was 1-8 when pierce was guarding him, and did better against everyone else.

lol

pierce is a fossil - do you guys still think lebron could score 61 on all two's in the NBA Finals against Bill Russell's Celtics?

pierce has always contained him, just like the relatively pedestrian athletes on the spurs and mavs.
.

[CavaliersFTW]

speaking of paul pierce (and how elgin was much better - a different type of athlete that was much quicker and had a firm, strong body capable of getting 20 rebounds per game) - espn ran a stat tonight showing how lebron was 1-8 when pierce was guarding him, and did better against everyone else.

lol

pierce is a fossil - do you guys still think lebron could score 61 on all two's in the NBA Finals against Bill Russell's Celtics?

pierce has always contained him, just like the relatively pedestrian athletes on the spurs and mavs.
.

Satch Sanders would be Lebron's iso opponent in a game against the Celtics... exact same measurements as Kawhi Leonard (and we all know how that length bothered Lebron) and along side Gus Johnson was considered (by Elgin) to be the best defensive forward of the 1960's. Not to mention Bill Russell was the guy right behind him protecting the rim as good and relentlessly as anyone in NBA history has ever been capable of.

Lebron can't score 50 points on the Spurs in the Finals with 3 point shots against Kawhi and an absolutely ancient totally unathletic (especially relative to Russell) Tim Duncan. Both of whom dedicate their energy in a balanced fashion on both ends, not just defensively like the Russell and Satch front court of the Celtics.

I don't even care about pace, by matchup alone on his best most perfect night Lebron isn't capable of scoring 50 on the 1962 Celtics in a Finals game let alone 61. Lebron isn't a scorer at heart, Elgin was. Knowing how he played against the current Spurs the 1960's Celtics would be his worst matchup nightmare possible as far as scoring points is concerned, even if everything went well for him and he got every lucky bounce and was hot. Still wouldn't crack 50. It's just not the way he plays, it never has been. He likely wouldn't crack 35 to be honest unless his teammates were absolutely terrible and not making their own shots, and that would be by his own design. He looks to pass more than to score compared to Elgin (though Elgin had as good a court vision as just about anyone, he just looked to shoot more).

[3ball]

Satch Sanders would be Lebron's iso opponent in a game against the Celtics... exact same measurements as Kawhi Leonard (and we all know how that length bothered Lebron) and along side Gus Johnson was considered (by Elgin) to be the best defensive forward of the 1960's. Not to mention Bill Russell was the guy right behind him protecting the rim as good and relentlessly as anyone in NBA history has ever been capable of.

Lebron can't score 50 points on the Spurs in the Finals with 3 point shots against Kawhi and an absolutely ancient totally unathletic (especially relative to Russell) Tim Duncan. Both of whom dedicate their energy in a balanced fashion on both ends, not just defensively like the Russell and Satch front court of the Celtics.

I don't even care about pace, by matchup alone on his best most perfect night Lebron isn't capable of scoring 50 on the 1962 Celtics in a Finals game let alone 61. Lebron isn't a scorer at heart, Elgin was. Knowing how he played against the current Spurs the 1960's Celtics would be his worst matchup nightmare possible as far as scoring points is concerned, even if everything went well for him and he got every lucky bounce and was hot. Still wouldn't crack 50. It's just not the way he plays, it never has been. He likely wouldn't crack 35 to be honest unless his teammates were absolutely terrible and not making their own shots, and that would be by his own design. He looks to pass more than to score compared to Elgin (though Elgin had as good a court vision as just about anyone, he just looked to shoot more).

Sorry this is turning into an Elgin shrine of highlights.. can't help it.











... SHIFTY





... ANOTHER POSTER ON RUSSELL


... better than any lebron pass

[iamgine]

Sorry this is turning into an Elgin shrine of highlights.. can't help it.








... SHIFTY








... ANOTHER POSTER ON RUSSELL


... better than any lebron pass

That supposed to be impressive?

[3ball]

That supposed to be impressive?

to a knowledgeable fan, yes..

a knowledgeable fan would know that the former best player in today's game cannot do 5 of the gifs previously posted itt, namely:

1) the two gifs showing drives that were initiated using the opposite pivot foot

2) the "shifty" up-and-under mid-range jumpshot gif

3) the willie mays throw-pass gif

4) and the upfake-while-dribbling move that derrick rose duplicated in a gif earlier itt
.

[iamgine]

to a knowledgeable fan, yes..

a knowledgeable fan would know that the former best player in today's game cannot do 5 of the gifs previously posted itt, namely:

1) the two gifs showing drives that were initiated using the opposite pivot foot

2) the "shifty" up-and-under mid-range jumpshot gif

3) the willie mays throw-pass gif

4) and the upfake-while-dribbling move that derrick rose duplicated in a gif earlier itt
.

I'd say it would be impressive to ignorant fans cause they haven't seen it before. Knowledgable fans have seen those over the top moves and bad defense in And1 and local YMCA thus:

[3ball]

Knowledgable fans have seen those over the top moves and bad defense in And1 and local YMCA

guys don't use their opposite pivot foot at the Y, unless it's by accident - it's not used much in college or the pros either - kobe talked about how rare it is and how difficult it is to execute here.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8UXE7pDA_c&t=0m35s

nor do they do willie mays 360 fullcourt pass.

some guys at the Y do use the derrick rose upfake-while-dribbling move, but they invariably carry, just like today's NBA players... the beauty of elgin doing the move, is that you couldn't carry back then, so elgin naturally positions his body and the ball in a way where his palm never has to go underneath the ball and carry like today's players... it's remarkable to do the move without even the slightest carry whatsoever.

[STATUTORY]

Sorry this is turning into an Elgin shrine of highlights.. can't help it.

took up the entire shot clock for this ni99a to run the open court on a "fast" break

and he was still faster than his white peers


pathetic

[Psileas]

I'd say it would be impressive to ignorant fans cause they haven't seen it before. Knowledgable fans have seen those over the top moves and bad defense in And1 and local YMCA thus:

The everyday top-10 is choke-full of plays that I've seen before and equally full of bad defense, and I don't see this pose any problem to knowledgeable fans.

[La Frescobaldi]

took up the entire shot clock for this ni99a to run the open court on a "fast" break

and he was still faster than his white peers


pathetic

do you know what frame speed is bro?