ISH's official ranking of the 5 greatest centers of all time

[Timmy D for MVP]

Go ahead and post the playoff games, and series, in which Russell outplayed Chamberlain.


Maybe in a handful of their 49 post-season H2H games (and Wilt was playing injured in those.) Overall, Chamberlain just crushed Russell in the post-season.

85-57

9-1 titles during their cohabitation.

What he wrote is wrong, Russell didn't terribly outperform him, but that is a huge sample size and it very clearly favors Russell.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Shaq

[Bless Mathews]

First of all Im not trying to downgrade Russell, but simply point out inconsistencies in peoples logic. There were only 8 or 9 teams when Russell played! Also he was frequently not even first team all-nba at center.

Russell was a fantastic defensive player on a team loaded with offensive, HOF talent, and together that combination won numerous titles. Giving disproportionate credit for that to Russell because he was on the team for 11 of them is like saying Horry wouldnt have been on seven title teams without being a HOF caliber player. Russell was limited in some aspects and had the good fortune, much like Kobe, to play his career for a top flight organization. It doesnt seem like you are taking any of that into account. "11 rings" is no better an argument for Russell than "7 rings" is for Horry. And again, Russell began each season with a 1/8 chance of winning the championship. Subsequent players started with a 1/15 chance, a 1/22 chance and eventually a 1/30 chance. Its much easier to be "GOATWINNER" when you have 300% better odds of winning a chip before even playing a minute.

Damn.

Slay of the year nominee.

[j3lademaster]

but that also means that less talent would be spread out and that each and every night was a dogfight for russell. he didn't have the luxury of facing the brandon jennings bucks in the first round of the playoffs

But the competition is also watered down. You didn't have international scouting, high school kids bound for the league practicing 8 hours a day etc. There could have been a kid in Africa with Wilt's physical gifts who was never discovered because of the lack of scouting, or an advertising manager who could have been better than Sam Jones but chose his profession because it paid much better, but we'll never know because the pool of talent was so small.

[Bless Mathews]

1. Shaq
2. Kareem
3. Hakeem

[Timmy D for MVP]

But the competition is also watered down. You didn't have international scouting, high school kids bound for the league practicing 8 hours a day etc. There could have been a kid in Africa with Wilt's physical gifts who was never discovered because of the lack of scouting, or an advertising manager who could have been better than Sam Jones but chose his profession because it paid much better, but we'll never know because the pool of talent was so small.

So then... we can only rate Shaq? Maybe Hakeem?

That logic can extend to every era except the current one. And that evolves over time as the game continues to grow.

[Prometheus]

If I'm giving each of these guys the benefit of the doubt (and ranking them by their careers), then I've got:

1. Kareem
2. Russell
3. Shaq
4. Wilt
5. Hakeem

If I'm shooting straight, picking them for my team, and/or ranking them by how good I truly believe they were, then I've got:

1. Wilt
2. Hakeem
3. Kareem
4. Russell
5. Shaq

Sorry but I'm pretty certain that if Auerbach had been coaching Wilt Chamberlain alongside Cousy, Sharman, Heinsohn, Havlicek, etc... they would have never lost.

And what if Hakeem was playing for the Lakers in Magic's day? Do we really think they would have been any worse off? Would Hakeem have been winning MVPs in the '70s? I think so...

Basically I think that the career resumes of the top-tier centers are the ones that need to be considered with the largest grains of salt, that their respective successes and failures have the most to do with their respective circumstances and are the least indicative of their true greatness.

[j3lademaster]

So then... we can only rate Shaq? Maybe Hakeem?

That logic can extend to every era except the current one. And that evolves over time as the game continues to grow.

No, we can only rate them on how dominant they were against their peers. My response was solely to him thinking the league was tougher at the time. I disagree and I think there's a reason no other era had such a large discrepancy in superstar vs role player performance wise.

You can somewhat compare players across eras also. I've seen Lazerus do this a lot with the whole Wilt dominating KAJ into KAJ dominating Hakeem and seeing how Hakeem has played against Shaq and how Shaq's compared to the talent of today. It's crude but it's the closest we can get and does hold some logic to it.

[j3lademaster]

So then... we can only rate Shaq? Maybe Hakeem?

That logic can extend to every era except the current one. And that evolves over time as the game continues to grow.

Also to the bolded, when the game has this kind of global revenue and popularity you have to expect the talent pool to have at least plateaued to a certain extent. Maybe if bball ever overcomes soccer as the #1 sport in the world then the talent pool can increase marginally.

[aj1987]

In what world is Russell a better player than Shaq?

1. Wilt
2. KAJ
3. Shaq
4. Hakeem
5. Russell

[Timmy D for MVP]

No, we can only rate them on how dominant they were against their peers. My response was solely to him thinking the league was tougher at the time. I disagree and I think there's a reason no other era had such a large discrepancy in superstar vs role player performance wise.

You can somewhat compare players across eras also. I've seen Lazerus do this a lot with the whole Wilt dominating KAJ into KAJ dominating Hakeem and seeing how Hakeem has played against Shaq and how Shaq's compared to the talent of today. It's crude but it's the closest we can get and does hold some logic to it.

So if you are going merely by how the rated against their peers then yes his era would be hardest. A condensed league meant more concentrated talent.

[AirFederer]

Shaq
Kareem
Russell
Hakeem
Wilt

[Timmy D for MVP]

Also to the bolded, when the game has this kind of global revenue and popularity you have to expect the talent pool to have at least plateaued to a certain extent. Maybe if bball ever overcomes soccer as the #1 sport in the world then the talent pool can increase marginally.

Correct, 30 years from now we may look back and see this as a smaller talent pool because basketball increased in popularity.

[DatAsh]

1. Russell
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Shaq
5. Hakeem

For me, top 3 are really close.

[Pointguard]

1. Wilt
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Shaq
5. Hakeem