Lebron craters the apg and assist % of his teammates

[TripleA]

Have actually played a game in your life. Your probably one of those fat kids in school who liked to talk about ball but we're to slow and unskilled to play.

[3ball]

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[COLOR="Blue"]Lebron significantly lowers the APG and assist % of his teammates:[/COLOR]


[COLOR="Green"]Wade apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'):[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 6.6, 34.8% [/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]Wade apg and assist % with[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] Lebron (11'-14'):[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 4.7, 25.5% [/COLOR]

[COLOR="Green"]Irving apg and assist % before Lebron (12'-14'):[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 5.8, 33.2[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]Irving apg and assist % with[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] Lebron (2015):[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 5.2, 25.0%[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Green"]Bosh apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'):[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 2.2, 10.5%[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]Bosh apg and assist % with[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] Lebron (11'-14'):[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 1.6, [COLOR="White"].[/COLOR]8.0% [/COLOR]

[COLOR="Green"]Kevin Love apg and assist % in MIN:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 2.5, 13.0%[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]Kevin Love apg and assist % in CLE:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 2.2, 10.7%[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Green"]Mo Williams apg and assist % before Lebron:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 6.3, 30.0%[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]Mo Williams apg and assist % with[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] Lebron:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 4.1, 20.1%[/COLOR]

FYI...

[COLOR="Green"]Pippen apg and assist % with[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] Jordan 91'-93':[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 6.5, 24.5[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]Pippen apg and assist % w/out Jordan 94'-95':[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 5.4, 23.7[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Green"]Pippen apg and assist % with[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] Jordan 96'-98':[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 5.8, 25.1[/COLOR]


Source: basketball-reference.com
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[TripleA]

Fat boy have you watched a game. You probably just look at Jordan gifs you unathletic weirdo.

[3ball]

In today's game, if a defender's man is behind the 3-point line (with or without the ball), the defender can sag off an unlimited amount, even all the way to the baseline, [COLOR="Navy"]BUT ONLY IF[/COLOR] the paint doesn't get in the way.

Unfortunately, as the diagram shows, almost nowhere on the 3-point arc can a defender sag off and not eventually meet the paint - in these instances, the defender only has 3 seconds in the paint, which is the same as previous eras, who were also allowed to sag into the paint for 3 seconds.

However, defenders in previous eras had an advantage specifically when sagging off [COLOR="Navy"]corner/sideline[/COLOR] 3-point shooters - they were allowed to paint-camp "with no time limits" in the "outside" lane, which is the outer partition running up the sides of the paint, shown above.. Today's defenders can't do this - they have 3 seconds in the "outside" lane, just like they do in the inside lane.. Given this disadvantage in sagging off on corner/sideline 3-point shooters, today's defender has less freedom in sagging off shooters than previous eras.
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[red1]

another garbage thread brought to you by...

[SouBeachTalents]

Instead of looking at these players assist ratios, you should look at their postseason success before LeBron, then with LeBron (with Wade obviously being the exception)

[3ball]

01-02 Lakers won 58 games and completed the threepeat.

02-03 Lakers had the same core, won 50 games and got knocked out in the second round.

03-04 They added Malone and Payton, lost Horry, won 56 games and got eliminated in the finals. Looks like shaking up the core improved things, but like you said, not enough.

I realized how your Lakers example makes my point - let's say Shaq retires after the 2002 season, and the remaining core players are healthy and in their prime with a chip on their shoulder to prove themselves without the self-proclaimed Most Dominant Ever (MDE)..

Now if Kobe leads that team to 55 wins in 2003, that achievement would be due to 3-peat chemistry and know-how, not talent... No one is going to say he had a stacked squad like young fans say about the 1994 Bulls... Fox, Fisher, and Horry don't represent talent - if you win 55 with those guys, it's due to chemistry.. It's the same thing when Pippen won 55 with Grant, BJ and Longley - they won 55 based on chemistry, not talent.

Now let's say Kobe DOESN'T lead that untalented supporting cast of Fox/Fisher/Horry to 55 wins, and instead wins 45 - then clearly, the team didn't have great chemistry to begin with and won their 3-peat from 2000-2002 based more on TALENT then chemistry (the talent being the monster duo of top 10 all-time players Shaq/Kobe)... Winning via talent is actually more likely, given how the Lakers very tenuous, flimsy chemistry was exposed in 2003 and 2004, when it completely broke down... Furthermore, the stats below show that MJ carried the far bigger load - Shaq/Kobe clearly shared the duties more than MJ/Pippen did.. MJ had to do more, due to a lesser cast - the data is clear.

Jordan scored a FAR higher proportion of his team's points while on the floor than Shaq or Kobe... [COLOR="Navy"]Shaq got twice the rebounds and blocks, but MJ had twice the assists and steals - so those categories cancel out and we're left with scoring[/COLOR].. The stats below are undeniable and prove MJ had less help than Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Lebron, Magic, Bird, etc, etc... Just like I've been saying all along.. And keep in mind - we're comparing 34-35 year old MJ to prime Shaq, and MJ's 2nd three-peat teams were supposed to be MORE "stacked" ( ):


[COLOR="White"]................[/COLOR][COLOR="Red"]Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor[/COLOR]


[COLOR="White"].........................[/COLOR]RS[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR]RS 4th[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] PO[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR]PO 4th[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR]Finals[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 36.0..... 40.1..... 37.7..... 46.3...... 40.9...... 50.4
JORDAN 1998... 36.3..... 42.1..... 39.7..... 48.8...... 43.6...... 49.1


SHAQ 2000....... 35.0..... 38.1..... 34.0..... 39.4...... 38.4...... 43.9
SHAQ 2001....... 33.9..... 38.0..... 33.9..... 34.0...... 35.4...... 26.2
SHAQ 2002....... 33.1..... 35.3..... 33.5..... 25.7...... 38.1...... 28.2


PIPPEN 1997.... 24.7..... 22.2..... 24.6..... 25.6...... 25.1...... 26.4
PIPPEN 1998.... 24.1..... 19.7..... 21.9..... 15.8...... 22.1...... 14.7


KOBE 2000....... 27.5..... 29.1..... 26.0..... 27.0...... 19.7...... 15.7
KOBE 2001....... 32.7..... 34.4..... 31.4..... 37.0...... 25.7...... 23.7
KOBE 2002....... 30.9..... 31.3..... 29.9..... 34.0...... 27.2...... 32.4
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[KellhitEmup15]

Your stupid as hell. Lebrons teams became trash when he does not play . I'm actually from Chicago and An idiot can see that Lebron has a huge impact on his team success.

[3ball]

Lebron achieves his stats by significantly reducing the APG and PPG of teammates - this is statistical fact.

Not only does Lebron reduce teammates' APG, but he increases their assisted rate, proving he turns teammates from playmakers into play-finishers..

Naturally, his teammates' basic play-finishing roles no longer succeed against the best teams in the playoffs, which explains their consistent underperformance in the Finals - the story is always how Lebron's teammates underperformed against the best teams, leading to TEAM underperformance by losing as the favorite (2009 ECF, 2010 ECSF, 2011 Finals) or when it's 50/50 (2014 Finals).

The reason Lebron turns teammates into play-finishers is threefold.

[KellhitEmup15]

When Lebron left the Cavs in 2011, it wasn't just Lebron that left - Mo Williams, Varejao, Shaq, Zydrunas and Delonte were all gone too.. Don't be dumb and think it was just Lebron that left... And this season, obviously, Bosh and Wade missed significant time with injury.. Again, don't be dumb and ignore this.

Otoh, it's a statistical fact that Lebron lowers the assist capacity of his team relative to other teams by turning a normally high-assisted frontcourt position into a low-assisted one... This is a statistical fact - Lebron's teams have far lower assist frequency than his peers.. And as this thread shows - Wade, Bosh, Love, Irving, and Mo Williams all have significantly lower apg and assist % alongside Lebron (while Pippen's assists went UP alongside off-ball Jordan, and DOWN when Jordan left).
Furthermore, the extra position of low-assisted, ball-dominance that Lebron adds to every team eliminates any chance of his teams running an equal-opportunity offense or the playing best brand of basketball, which allows equal or less-talented teams to pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014)..

Ultimately, it takes more ability to achieve great stats within an equal-opportunity, winning framework, than the grade school-level, clearout/playground style that ball-dominators like Lebron need to put up
numbers.

The Miami Heat missed the playoffs the Nets and Celtics got in over them that's disgusting. You have to be blind to not see how he helps his team win.

[KellhitEmup15]

Why does it matter if his teammates assists go down if them being the stars of the team did not lead to success aka Love,Irving,Williams and Bosh.

[3ball]

Lebron's low-assisted, point-guard play from the SF position means that every team he's on has an extra point guard... His presence as an extra low-assisted player reduces the playmaking capacity of teammates (since they can't toss him a dime) and their playmaking responsibility (since he's dominating the ball).. Not surprisingly, teammates get far less assists alongside Lebron and all of Lebron's teams have far lower assist frequency than his peers.

Why does it matter if his teammates assists go down if them being the stars of the team did not lead to success aka Love,Irving,Williams and Bosh.

Lebron's ball-dominance turns his teammates from playmakers into play-finishers, which prevents the team from running equal opportunity offenses like the Spurs and Warriors use, where all 5 players share the playmaking responsibility.

Since Lebron's ball-dominance prevents his teams from playing the best brand of basketball, equal or less-talented opponents are able to pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014)..

Btw, it takes more ability to achieve great stats within an equal-opportunity, winning framework, than the grade school-level, clearout/playground style that ball-dominators like Lebron need to get their numbers.

[KellhitEmup15]

Your actually a dimwit. Fake ass intellectual. Your probably some unathletic nerd.

[SouBeachTalents]

I'd take a wild guess and say Bosh, Kyrie, and Love would trade half an assist and zero playoff success for deep playoff runs and championships

[3ball]

- after their top 3 guys who average double figures - the Pistons had Laimbeer/Rodman/Aguirre/Vinnie/Edwards like the Pistons, 1991 Lakers, 1992 Blazers, 1993 Suns, or ANY good team (like today's Spurs or Warriors) have numerous quality players past their top 3 guys.

The Bulls' team was built differently from most good teams - they had 2 good players, 1 role player, and literally 8+ interchangeable stiffs...


4. 1994. Jordan up and QUIT. He is not traded for additional talent...he QUIT. The Bulls scrambled to replace him, and with whom? None other than the legendary Pete Myers. Yes, they also added Kerr and Kukoc, but neither made a significant impact.

The '94 Bulls then went 55-27...which was deceptive. Why? Because Pippen and Grant missed a combined 22 games. Had those played in almost every game, they easily would have won 60+ games. No question about it. Oh, and Pippen was now considered a Top-FIVE player in the league...which, he was. And Grant? An ELITE PF who had a HUGE IMPACT on EVERY team he played with. And easily the best interior defender on the Bulls. Not only that, but his offensive impact could be measured by his staggering ORtgs.

[COLOR="Red"]The "if this... if that... and if this" argument for why Bulls could've beaten Knicks, Pacers and Rockets in 1994 Playoffs:[/COLOR]

Ok, the '94 55-27 Bulls then lost a close and controversial seven game series against 56-26 Knicks in the ECSF's. In fact, they were ONE PLAY AWAY FROM WINNING THAT SERIES IN SIX GAMES.

The 56-26 Knicks then polished off the Pacers in the ECF's. The same team that Chicago dominated during the season, 4-1. So, the likely scenario was that had Chicago beaten the Knicks, they would have gone to the Finals.

As it was, the 56-26 Knicks lost a game seven to the 58-24 Rockets in the Finals...by four points. In a series that they outscored Houston (just as Chicago had outscored NY in the ECSF's.)

So, we KNOW that this was NOT an "ordinary second round losing team." They were actually a CHAMPIONSHIP contending team.

5. 1995. In addition to not having Jordan, this team no longer had the ELITE PF, Grant. TWO KEY players from their '93 title team. Somehow, Pippen, a Top-5 player in the league, WILLED this roster to a 34-31 record. Think about that. Pippen could carry an MJ-less and Grant-less roster to a winning record, but Jordan never had a winning season without PIPPEN (much less without Grant/Rodman.)

You're bragging about a .500 record?... Many players worse than Pippen have led teams to .500 records.

Furthermore, the Bulls' 1995 roster improved in various ways - starting SG Ron Harper was brought on board, and Kukoc's 2nd year stats drastically improved to 16 ppg on 51% (compared to 10 ppg on 43% in 1994).

And again, Pippen was not a top 5 player in 1995.. 1995/prime David Robinson, Barkley or Malone were all better, along with Shaq (29/13/2.5 blk)... Ewing (25/11/2.7).... and Alonzo (21/10/3).

All these guys would laugh you out of the room if you said Pippen was better, and their stats destroy Pippen's... Don't overrate 22 ppg on 49%.






made several improvements to their roster in 1995You're bragging about a .500 record
Ok, MJ decided to come back to steal another ring. He returns and play the last 17 games of the season. In game five, he poured in 55 points. Clearly, he is completely back, and in fact, when the playoffs arrive, he is the most refreshed and healthiest player in the post-season.


In round 1 MJ proves he is completely back. He hung a 32-7-6 .495 series...which was similar to his '93 playoff averages.

In round 2, the Bulls are beaten 4-2, by a team with Horace GRANT, who put up a staggering 18-11 .647 series. Clearly, it is GRANT who was a KEY piece to Shaq's Magic.

However, the Magic were then SWEPT by a 47-35 team in the Finals.

Think about that. The '94 team came within an eyelash of at least getting to the ECF's, and likely would have given Houston all they could handle in the Finals...since we know that the team that beat the '94 Bulls outplayed that Rockets team. And yet, with MJ basically replacing GRANT on the '95 Bulls...MJ couldn't come close to what the '94 Bulls had accomplished in the post-season.


Now, 3ball (and other's) will tell you NONSENSE, like, you could easily replace Grant (or perhaps even Pippen...which was basically IMPOSSIBLE to replace.) Now, if that were the case, then how about this...

Let's replace PETE MYERS, who wasn't even a Top-20 SG in '94, with even an average SG. Likely a title. But how about replacing him with Reggie Miller, or Joe Dumars, or Mitch Richmond. Does anyone here honestly believe that one of those guys would NOT have made a HUGE difference?


6. 1996. Chicago management took one look at the disappointing '95 season and realized...hey, we can't win without an ELITE PF. So, they went out and grabbed HOFer Dennis Rodman. And the rest was history.

The '96 Bulls had an MJ, who replaced Grant on a 55+ win team, and then ADDED HOFer Rodman.

CLEARLY, the Bulls in the 90's were the most STACKED team in the league. And before 3ball mentions that players like Bird or Magic had better supporting casts...those teams were NOT playing in the 90's. The 90's were a watered down era, where most teams only had one great player, and possibly two. There were no teams like the early 80's Sixers, or late 80's Pistons, or the 80's Celtics and Lakers. Not even close.

One more time...we KNOW how the Bulls played withOUT Jordan. They were a 55+ win team, that could seriously challenge for a title. Now, let's remove the best player from every other team in the 90's...guys like Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, Shaq, K. Malone, Barkley, etc...

How many rings do the Bulls win without Jordan in that scenario?

I say they easily win six.

THAT tells you all you need to know about MJ's supporting casts in the 90's.[/QUOTE]