would the 2016 cavs even make the playoffs

[AirBonner]

Without Lebron?

[FreezingTsmoove]

Yes

Keep in mind the trash brothers were 2 wins away from the finals and 6 away from a title

The state of the league last year was the weakest I have ever seen

[SilkkTheShocker]

Honestly? No. I just don't see it. Kyrie is one of the most talented players in the league. But he had some bad habits before LeBron was able to teach him how to win.

[SouBeachTalents]

Yes, but we would've had to endure a Warriors-Raptors Finals

[BigKAT]

I don't think so.
The east was pretty hard.

I give them 40 wins.
Obviously they would be better without lebron for a whole season then they were without him for just a few games (Because they'd be prepared for it, if you get my point.)

But I don't think they make the playoffs last season.

[HurricaneKid]

Ky missed a TON of time coming back from the knee injury. He wasn't in the top 300 in league in RAPM. So he really didn't get back to full steam until the playoffs.

Without LeBron on the floor the Cavs were -4.8 pts/100. That's ~just behind the Bucks for 27th in the league. Miles behind the #9 seed Chicago Bulls.

So no, frankly it doesn't look like the team he took to a CHIP was even a playoff team.

And in the PLAYOFFS the Cavs were -7.2 pts/100 without him on the floor.

[Velocirap31]

Ky missed a TON of time coming back from the knee injury. He wasn't in the top 300 in league in RAPM. So he really didn't get back to full steam until the playoffs.

Without LeBron on the floor the Cavs were -4.8 pts/100. That's ~just behind the Bucks for 27th in the league. Miles behind the #9 seed Chicago Bulls.

So no, frankly it doesn't look like the team he took to a CHIP was even a playoff team.

And in the PLAYOFFS the Cavs were -7.2 pts/100 without him on the floor.

Best answer.

[Hoopz2332]

no they wouldn't


This is how the Cavs players performed in +/- playing with LeBron versus playing without LeBron on court over the course of the season. To me, these numbers demonstrate the true greatness of LeBron James. Without LeBron, it could be argued that the Cavs are mediocre. The team is lost without him. LeBron carried this team to the championship, not just by making a Herculean effort in the Finals, but he did it throughout the season too. LeBron is the Cavs. The Cavs are LeBron.

[CODE]WITH and WITHOUT LeBron James

WITH min per 48 | WITHOUT min per 48 | DIFFERENCE
Frye + 3.9 8.2 + 22.8 | - 2.1 10.7 - 9.4 | +32.2
Delly + 5.6 16.8 + 16.0 | - 0.1 9.1 - 0.5 | +16.5
Shumpert + 3.4 12.5 + 13.1 | + 0.3 12.8 + 1.1 | +11.9
Thompson + 5.6 20.7 + 13.0 | - 0.9 8.8 - 4.9 | +17.9
Love + 6.7 27.4 + 11.7 | - 0.8 6.2 - 6.2 | +17.9
Smith + 5.3 26.9 + 9.5 | - 1.0 6.3 - 7.6 | +17.1
Irving + 4.2 23.6 + 8.5 | 0.0 10.0 0.0 | + 8.5
Jefferso + 1.0 7.3 + 6.6 | - 1.3 12.7 - 4.9 | +11.5
Williams + 1.9 15.8 + 5.8 | - 2.7 6.3 -20.6 | +26.3

[/CODE]

These are outrageous numbers. The kind of difference LeBron makes is huge. Without LeBron on court, each player gets net losses across the board. With him, massive positives. The difference is staggering.

As a comparison, here are the same with-without +/- stats for the other members of the "Big 3". Or perhaps "massive 1 and biggish 2"?

Irving:

[CODE]WITH and WITHOUT Irving

WITH WITHOUT
"+/-" min per 48 "+/-" min per 48 DIFFERENCE
James + 4.2 23.6 + 8.5 | + 5.4 20.4 + 12.7 | - 4.2
Smith + 2.3 22.2 + 5.0 | + 2.5 15.8 + 7.6 | - 2.6
Thompson + 4.4 27.7 + 7.6 | + 3.9 31.5 + 5.9 | + 1.7
Love + 2.8 23.1 + 5.8 | + 3.9 17.3 +10.8 | - 5.0
Shumpert + 1.1 13.0 + 4.1 | + 2.4 12.8 + 9.0 | - 4.9
Delly + 1.4 8.8 + 7.6 | + 4.3 19.8 +10.4 | - 2.8
Frye + 0.7 9.6 + 3.5 | + 0.6 9.2 + 3.1 | + 0.4
Jeffers + 0.6 8.0 + 3.6 | - 0.9 13.3 - 3.2 | + 6.8
Willia - 1.0 3.5 -13.7 | - 1.0 17.6 - 2.7 | -11.0[/CODE]

This doesn't paint Irving's impact on his teammates in a particularly positive light. He is getting big credit for stepping up in the Finals, but his impact based on regular season +/- is not as impressive, especially for a "superstar". Statistically, the other two of the Big 3 actually preferred when they are playing without Irving. And this applies to several others too. Dissing Irving might be a dangerous thing to do around here, so I will just say: basketball is a team game.

And Love:

[CODE]WITH and WITHOUT Love

WITH | WITHOUT |
+/- min per 48 | "+/-" min per 48 | DIFFERENCE
James + 6.7 27.4 + 11.7 | + 1.8 9.7 + 8.9 | + 2.8
Irving + 2.8 23.1 + 5.8 | + 1.4 10.5 + 6.4 | - 0.6
Smith + 3.3 23.8 + 6.7 | + 0.9 8.4 + 5.1 | + 1.5
Thompson + 4.0 16.6 + 11.6 | + 0.7 12.4 + 2.7 | + 8.9
Shumpert + 2.8 11.0 + 12.2 | + 0.8 14.4 + 2.7 | + 9.6
Delly + 4.5 14.1 + 15.3 | + 0.8 11.4 + 3.4 | + 12.0
Frye - 1.0 5.0 - 9.6 | + 1.7 15.5 + 5.3 | - 14.9
Jefferson + 0.1 7.5 + 0.6 | - 0.7 11.5 - 2.9 | + 3.6
Williams + 1.4 14.7 + 4.6 | - 2.4 7.1 -16.2 | + 20.8


[/CODE]

To honour the departing Delly, here is how the Cavs players played with and without him. Somehow Delly seems to add more value that the lesser 2 of the Big 3.

Delly:

[CODE]WITH and WITHOUT Delly

WITH | WITHOUT |
"+/-" min per 48 | "+/-" min per 48 | DIFFERENCE
James +5.6 16.8 +16.0 | +3.0 20.4 +7.1 | +8.9
Irving +1.4 8.8 +7.6 | +2.8 24.7 +5.4 | +2.2
Smith +3.2 12.6 +12.2 | +1.2 19.4 +3.0 | +9.2
Thompson +3.0 15.2 +9.5 | +1.6 13.8 +5.6 | +3.9
Love +4.5 14.1 +15.3 | +1.4 18.5 +3.6 | +11.7
Shumpert +2.3 13.9 +7.9 | +1.4 11.7 +5.7 | +2.2
Frye +0.3 10.7 +1.3 | +1.0 7.7 +6.2 | -4.9
Jeffers +0.9 10.6 +4.1 | -1.5 8.4 -8.6 | +12.6
Williams +1.8 7.3 +11.8 | -2.4 14.7 -7.8 | +19.7

[/CODE]

[JT123]

Ky missed a TON of time coming back from the knee injury. He wasn't in the top 300 in league in RAPM. So he really didn't get back to full steam until the playoffs.

Without LeBron on the floor the Cavs were -4.8 pts/100. That's ~just behind the Bucks for 27th in the league. Miles behind the #9 seed Chicago Bulls.

So no, frankly it doesn't look like the team he took to a CHIP was even a playoff team.

And in the PLAYOFFS the Cavs were -7.2 pts/100 without him on the floor.

Agreed.

[Bigsmoke]

With kyrie missing as much games as he did? No

[AintNoSunshine]

The team would have no leadership, no stability, no athleticism, no toughness and no defense. For as much talent they have among Kyrie, Love and JR, I am not confident they would have made the Playoffs.

[LostCause]

They would've made the playoffs

Defensively they'd suffer, but offensively they should be fine. Have to remember that the team would have a completely different offense without Bron and guys like Love and Kyrie would go back to their natural roles. This is different from a pool of games that Bron has missed because this team would legitimately have spent ample time playing around their stars (Love/Irving) instead of through Bron

They'd be a 1st or 2nd round team, though, mainly because of the lack of depth and weak defense. Unless Lue is a better coach than I think he is, but you can't really tell since Bron can and has overachieved with coaches in over their heads before

If we're just assuming Bron was gone for last season, the experience gained from the prior season where they made it to the Finals should boost fringe guys like Smith, Thompson etc and force Irving to be more of a leader

[moongaze]

no they wouldn't


This is how the Cavs players performed in +/- playing with LeBron versus playing without LeBron on court over the course of the season. To me, these numbers demonstrate the true greatness of LeBron James. Without LeBron, it could be argued that the Cavs are mediocre. The team is lost without him. LeBron carried this team to the championship, not just by making a Herculean effort in the Finals, but he did it throughout the season too. LeBron is the Cavs. The Cavs are LeBron.

[CODE]WITH and WITHOUT LeBron James

WITH min per 48 | WITHOUT min per 48 | DIFFERENCE
Frye + 3.9 8.2 + 22.8 | - 2.1 10.7 - 9.4 | +32.2
Delly + 5.6 16.8 + 16.0 | - 0.1 9.1 - 0.5 | +16.5
Shumpert + 3.4 12.5 + 13.1 | + 0.3 12.8 + 1.1 | +11.9
Thompson + 5.6 20.7 + 13.0 | - 0.9 8.8 - 4.9 | +17.9
Love + 6.7 27.4 + 11.7 | - 0.8 6.2 - 6.2 | +17.9
Smith + 5.3 26.9 + 9.5 | - 1.0 6.3 - 7.6 | +17.1
Irving + 4.2 23.6 + 8.5 | 0.0 10.0 0.0 | + 8.5
Jefferso + 1.0 7.3 + 6.6 | - 1.3 12.7 - 4.9 | +11.5
Williams + 1.9 15.8 + 5.8 | - 2.7 6.3 -20.6 | +26.3

[/CODE]

These are outrageous numbers. The kind of difference LeBron makes is huge. Without LeBron on court, each player gets net losses across the board. With him, massive positives. The difference is staggering.

As a comparison, here are the same with-without +/- stats for the other members of the "Big 3". Or perhaps "massive 1 and biggish 2"?

Irving:

[CODE]WITH and WITHOUT Irving

WITH WITHOUT
"+/-" min per 48 "+/-" min per 48 DIFFERENCE
James + 4.2 23.6 + 8.5 | + 5.4 20.4 + 12.7 | - 4.2
Smith + 2.3 22.2 + 5.0 | + 2.5 15.8 + 7.6 | - 2.6
Thompson + 4.4 27.7 + 7.6 | + 3.9 31.5 + 5.9 | + 1.7
Love + 2.8 23.1 + 5.8 | + 3.9 17.3 +10.8 | - 5.0
Shumpert + 1.1 13.0 + 4.1 | + 2.4 12.8 + 9.0 | - 4.9
Delly + 1.4 8.8 + 7.6 | + 4.3 19.8 +10.4 | - 2.8
Frye + 0.7 9.6 + 3.5 | + 0.6 9.2 + 3.1 | + 0.4
Jeffers + 0.6 8.0 + 3.6 | - 0.9 13.3 - 3.2 | + 6.8
Willia - 1.0 3.5 -13.7 | - 1.0 17.6 - 2.7 | -11.0[/CODE]

This doesn't paint Irving's impact on his teammates in a particularly positive light. He is getting big credit for stepping up in the Finals, but his impact based on regular season +/- is not as impressive, especially for a "superstar". Statistically, the other two of the Big 3 actually preferred when they are playing without Irving. And this applies to several others too. Dissing Irving might be a dangerous thing to do around here, so I will just say: basketball is a team game.

And Love:

[CODE]WITH and WITHOUT Love

WITH | WITHOUT |
+/- min per 48 | "+/-" min per 48 | DIFFERENCE
James + 6.7 27.4 + 11.7 | + 1.8 9.7 + 8.9 | + 2.8
Irving + 2.8 23.1 + 5.8 | + 1.4 10.5 + 6.4 | - 0.6
Smith + 3.3 23.8 + 6.7 | + 0.9 8.4 + 5.1 | + 1.5
Thompson + 4.0 16.6 + 11.6 | + 0.7 12.4 + 2.7 | + 8.9
Shumpert + 2.8 11.0 + 12.2 | + 0.8 14.4 + 2.7 | + 9.6
Delly + 4.5 14.1 + 15.3 | + 0.8 11.4 + 3.4 | + 12.0
Frye - 1.0 5.0 - 9.6 | + 1.7 15.5 + 5.3 | - 14.9
Jefferson + 0.1 7.5 + 0.6 | - 0.7 11.5 - 2.9 | + 3.6
Williams + 1.4 14.7 + 4.6 | - 2.4 7.1 -16.2 | + 20.8


[/CODE]

To honour the departing Delly, here is how the Cavs players played with and without him. Somehow Delly seems to add more value that the lesser 2 of the Big 3.

Delly:

[CODE]WITH and WITHOUT Delly

WITH | WITHOUT |
"+/-" min per 48 | "+/-" min per 48 | DIFFERENCE
James +5.6 16.8 +16.0 | +3.0 20.4 +7.1 | +8.9
Irving +1.4 8.8 +7.6 | +2.8 24.7 +5.4 | +2.2
Smith +3.2 12.6 +12.2 | +1.2 19.4 +3.0 | +9.2
Thompson +3.0 15.2 +9.5 | +1.6 13.8 +5.6 | +3.9
Love +4.5 14.1 +15.3 | +1.4 18.5 +3.6 | +11.7
Shumpert +2.3 13.9 +7.9 | +1.4 11.7 +5.7 | +2.2
Frye +0.3 10.7 +1.3 | +1.0 7.7 +6.2 | -4.9
Jeffers +0.9 10.6 +4.1 | -1.5 8.4 -8.6 | +12.6
Williams +1.8 7.3 +11.8 | -2.4 14.7 -7.8 | +19.7

[/CODE]

Funny how you say basketball is a team game then use a team based stat to judge an individual player. +/- doesn't give you an accurate assessment of the players impact on the game.

[Hoopz2332]

Funny how you say basketball is a team game then use a team based stat to judge an individual player. +/- doesn't give you an accurate assessment of the players impact on the game.

a team game where individual play stands out more than other sports like baseball and football

[HurricaneKid]

Funny how you say basketball is a team game then use a team based stat to judge an individual player. +/- doesn't give you an accurate assessment of the players impact on the game.

Adjusted +/- stats with big enough data sets ARE THE WAY to show on court impact.