Kblazes long boring post on offense.

[Kblaze8855]

Perkins gets positioning(screens) and ball denial(post defense). That's about it.

Im not sure John Lucas the third gets anything unless being a 77% ft shooter counts for a point guard.

He would get "Balls" if I counted it but that is only a virtue when you have the talent to make something happen on a regular basis.

Im not sure you cant make a case for Kevin Garnett to get 16....which would be the most of anyone ive thought of so far. 14 for sure. 16 arguable. MJ is at 15 for sure and like....19 arguable.

[Kblaze8855]

Im giving Bill Russell 15.

Wilt 14 arguably 15.

Magic 13

Lebron 13

Kobe 13

Dennis Johnson a solid 13 maybe 14.

Trying ot think of anyone with a legit 16. Tim Duncan has it if I give him offensive leadership. And im not sure why I shouldn't. He is utterly selfless on offense and his presence and willingness to do what his teammates require has made a lot of players look better than they would otherwise. And they all seem to appreciate and acknowledge it.

Timmy might be the only legit 16 with none of them easily argued against.

[AirFederer]

Great post(s).

If MJ doesn`t come out on top you`re missing something btw
Maybe because your "scale" is more fitting for great big men? Don`t know.

Anyway, this thread deserves to live, instead of the multiple troll threads

[BoutPractice]

Among guards, I wonder how many Oscar, West (haven't paid enough attention to their defense), Frazier, Penny, and Chris Paul could be argued to have. Among bigs, Hakeem. Seems like he has pretty much everything save for elite playmaking and passing.
I also wonder what the absolute highest score for a "non-star" would be, and who it would be.

[Kblaze8855]

Well based on what I know, what ive seen, reports from his peers, and so on...I could probably give Oscar 19.

But I don't know if I trust it without just watching a hell of a lot of him. Not as much of him in his prime is out there as some of the other old greats.

Far as the highest for a non star....

There are some well rounded stoppers with good shots who might get around 10. Battier for one you could give like 8 or 9.

[Kblaze8855]

Among guards, I wonder how many Oscar, West (haven't paid enough attention to their defense), Frazier, Penny, and Chris Paul could be argued to have. Among bigs, Hakeem. Seems like he has pretty much everything save for elite playmaking and passing.
I also wonder what the absolute highest score for a "non-star" would be, and who it would be.

Bored so....

Chris Paul - 13

Charles Barkley - 12

Derrick Rose - 8(last time he was healthy at least)

John Stockton - 13

Gary Payton 12 or 13

Walt Frazier - 13?

Jason Kidd 13 or 14

Penny - 11
Doctor J maybe....6? But he got a lot of use out of them.

Hakeem.......17?

Shaq - 11

Kevin Durant 9 - 10

Jerry West by reputation and what ive seen id say 15

The 15+ list is short.

Jordan
Kg
Hakeem
Russell
Oscar
West
Duncan
KG

[Pushxx]

Craftiness is so fun to watch in the NBA. Guys like Andre Miller, Pierce, or Nash that can make something out of nothing and leave you wondering how a defender can let them do that.

MJ's blocks from behind made me laugh. I would always think how quickly the blocked player went from happy to get by MJ to shut down lol.

[pauk]

Hm... I am struggling to understand how you would consider Lebron NOT having essentially all those qualities you mentioned except for something like freethrow shooting perhaps...

Lebron James
prime Grant Hill
Oscar Robertson

Those top my list.

[Kblaze8855]

Hm... I am struggling to understand how you would consider Lebron NOT having essentially all those qualities you mentioned except for something like freethrow shooting perhaps...

Lebron James
prime Grant Hill
Oscar Robertson

Those top my list.

After another look ill bump Lebron from 13 to 14.


Man to man defense.
Ball denial and positioning
Forcing the defense to account for you even if you aren't actually a great defender
Effort plays.
Hole filling/being well rounded
Intimidation
Being successful with what the defense is willing to concede to you
Passing
Getting to the basket
Offensive Leadership
Clutch play
Playmaking
Ball handling
Versatility


And I not 100% sure on all of those. Hes not the best at making the jumpers the defense concedes to him....but....he did win a game 7 for the NBA title by doing just that. So I cant really think of a bigger success using what the defense gives you.

Game to game im not sure he deserves it as a real noteworthy part of his game. But I wont pretend he didn't win a title off midrangej jumpers the D was happy to allow him. So it kinda seems like...the definition of success with what you are given. So I gave him that.

And hes not a special ball handler either. He is for his size....so I let him have it. I feel 14 is more than fair.

[Kblaze8855]

I guess you can look at the numbers and justify giving him outside shooting but it doesn't stand out as a noteworthy part of his game to me.

I wont argue if someone wants to give him that though.

[K Xerxes]

And I not 100% sure on all of those. Hes not the best at making the jumpers the defense concedes to him....but....he did win a game 7 for the NBA title by doing just that. So I cant really think of a bigger success using what the defense gives you.

It took him 7 games to start shooting and draining open jumpers in the finals. That's unforgivable, even if he did finally start making them in game 7. I wouldn't give him that, especially as the entire Spurs game plan relied on LeBron either refusing or bricking wide open practice type shots.

[pauk]

After another look ill bump Lebron from 13 to 14.


Man to man defense.
Ball denial and positioning
Forcing the defense to account for you even if you aren't actually a great defender
Effort plays.
Hole filling/being well rounded
Intimidation
Being successful with what the defense is willing to concede to you
Passing
Getting to the basket
Offensive Leadership
Clutch play
Playmaking
Ball handling
Versatility


And I not 100% sure on all of those. Hes not the best at making the jumpers the defense concedes to him....but....he did win a game 7 for the NBA title by doing just that. So I cant really think of a bigger success using what the defense gives you.

Game to game im not sure he deserves it as a real noteworthy part of his game. But I wont pretend he didn't win a title off midrangej jumpers the D was happy to allow him. So it kinda seems like...the definition of success with what you are given. So I gave him that.

And hes not a special ball handler either. He is for his size....so I let him have it. I feel 14 is more than fair.

Yea i see what you mean, but i definitely think he has at least 15 of those qualities, really trying not to be prejudiced here but cant help it, i say what i have seen and i have seen maybe every single game of his.... lets just blame it on me being a "Lebrontard" and move on :)

[Kblaze8855]

It took him 7 games to start shooting and draining open jumpers in the finals. That's unforgivable, even if he did finally start making them in game 7. I wouldn't give him that, especially as the entire Spurs game plan relied on LeBron either refusing or bricking wide open practice type shots.

Anything resulting in:




is forgiven. It always has been and always will be. Without a single exception ever.

As I said im not claiming hes great at taking the shots hes given....but given my description....success while taking what the defense will give you...its hard to say he shouldnt have that one when it literally won them the title.


And Pauk...at least 15?

Just dont see it. Hes just really great at about 3-4. Which is enough.

[raiderfan19]

I'm curious how many youd give Shawn Marion in his prime. I think you could justify any number from 9-12 but he was never a superstar. I'm curious if you can think of anyone with as many as him that wasn't a superstar. Rasheed Wallace might be close.

[Kblaze8855]

You could give Marion up to 11 id say. 9-11.

Iggy perhaps 8? Manu is probably the highest among people not really considered top players.