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  1. #16
    Local High School Star Bush4Ever's Avatar
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    Default Re: Statistically, who matches up with "Playoff Jordan"?

    Someone will....eventually. Someone will come along who is better than Jordan. That is the way of things.

    Out of the current batch, only Lebron and perhaps Wade has the faintest chance of passing Jordan. But I am 99 percent sure neither one will pass Jordan.
    Last edited by Bush4Ever; 04-29-2009 at 02:52 PM.

  2. #17
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    Default Re: Statistically, who matches up with "Playoff Jordan"?

    Kobe as the #1 option has averaged 30/5.6/5.4 on 47.8% and 1.6 stl over 38 games. Very comparable to those numbers. Also consider that he has faced a 50+ win team (aside from Utah this year with 48 wins) every series. This includes a trip to the finals and probably a championship this year.

    Wade imo still has been the best playoff performer. His stats are brought down by the series against the Bulls when he has played injured.

    Lebron's performance has been very poor considering the level of competition he has faced (3 series vs. bottom 5 defensive team, 2 against sub .500 teams, this accounts for 67% of series he has been in). He is at the bottom of the rung right now.

  3. #18
    Local High School Star Bush4Ever's Avatar
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    Default Re: Statistically, who matches up with "Playoff Jordan"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatal9
    Kobe as the #1 option has averaged 30/5.6/5.4 on 47.8% and 1.6 stl over 38 games. Very comparable to those numbers. Also consider that he has faced a 50+ win team (aside from Utah this year with 48 wins) every series. This includes a trip to the finals and probably a championship this year.

    Wade imo still has been the best playoff performer. His stats are brought down by the series against the Bulls when he has played injured.

    Lebron's performance has been very poor considering the level of competition he has faced (3 series vs. bottom 5 defensive team, 2 against sub .500 teams, this accounts for 67% of series he has been in). He is at the bottom of the rung right now.
    MJ had an entire career as the number 1 option, which included many "old man years", which dragged down his averages somewhat. Kobe has not had any such seasons, and the numbers you list above all came in the relative prime of his career.

    Additionally, the differences between MJ and Kobe in NBA Finals trips are very nearly the two extremes of performances.

    Kobe has no shot.

  4. #19
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    Default Re: Statistically, who matches up with "Playoff Jordan"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bush4Ever
    MJ had an entire career as the number 1 option, which included many "old man years", which dragged down his averages somewhat. Kobe has not had any such seasons, and the numbers you list above all came in the relative prime of his career.

    Additionally, the differences between MJ and Kobe in NBA Finals trips are very nearly the two extremes of performances.

    Kobe has no shot.
    In comparing their finals performances, consider that MJ has never even come close to facing a defense as good as the '08 Celtics or the '04 Pistons in the finals. They actually have a higher defensive rating than any team MJ has ever faced though it is pretty close to 90s Knicks (but then again, Jordan had a huge size advantage in his matchup with Starks). More physical yes, but not more intelligent. It is nearly impossible for a player to get any sort of dribble penetration against those two teams because of the layer of defenders in the lane which is anchored by the DPOY. This really blocks Kobe, Lebron or Wade from exploding against a good defense. Not saying Jordan had it any easier because he had ten eyes on him at all times but so did Kobe and Lebron against the Celtics.

    I recently watched a couple of games from the Celtics/Lakers and Cavs/Celtics series and the defense is absolutely unrelenting. There is no chance at all for them to make a move in any direction because a help defender is ready to turn or has already turned to defend them right from the first dribble. Lebron only went off for one game in that series and it was when he was hitting ridiculous jumpers. Kobe who has a better jumpshot had such a hard time because not only was it impossible to get penetration, he was defended by a player 2 inches taller than him, who also happens to play excellent perimeter defense (again, I reiterate, Starks could never bother Jordan's shots, he was quick off his feet but the reach just wasn't there). The best I've seen Jordan defended in the finals was against the Sonics but even then he was uncharacteristically missing shots he would usually hit.

    I don't think it is fair to make a conclusion of finals performances just yet when you take into account that Kobe went up against all-time great defenses in the finals while Jordan didn't. No sane and unbiased observer can ever even begin to argue that Lakers/Blazers/Suns/Sonics/Jazz were on the same level as the Pistons/Celtics. All except Sonics weren't even top 5 in the league during the very year Jordan faced them in the finals. Realistically though, Kobe has a shot to be in the finals for years to come so he can easily redeem himself.

  5. #20
    Local High School Star Bush4Ever's Avatar
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    Default Re: Statistically, who matches up with "Playoff Jordan"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatal9
    In comparing their finals performances, consider that MJ has never even come close to facing a defense as good as the '08 Celtics or the '04 Pistons in the finals. They actually have a higher defensive rating than any team MJ has ever faced though it is pretty close to 90s Knicks (but then again, Jordan had a huge size advantage in his matchup with Starks). More physical yes, but not more intelligent. It is nearly impossible for a player to get any sort of dribble penetration against those two teams because of the layer of defenders in the lane which is anchored by the DPOY. This really blocks Kobe, Lebron or Wade from exploding against a good defense. Not saying Jordan had it any easier because he had ten eyes on him at all times but so did Kobe and Lebron against the Celtics.

    I recently watched a couple of games from the Celtics/Lakers and Cavs/Celtics series and the defense is absolutely unrelenting. There is no chance at all for them to make a move in any direction because a help defender is ready to turn or has already turned to defend them right from the first dribble. Lebron only went off for one game in that series and it was when he was hitting ridiculous jumpers. Kobe who has a better jumpshot had such a hard time because not only was it impossible to get penetration, he was defended by a player 2 inches taller than him, who also happens to play excellent perimeter defense (again, I reiterate, Starks could never bother Jordan's shots, he was quick off his feet but the reach just wasn't there). The best I've seen Jordan defended in the finals was against the Sonics but even then he was uncharacteristically missing shots he would usually hit.

    I don't think it is fair to make a conclusion of finals performances just yet when you take into account that Kobe went up against all-time great defenses in the finals while Jordan didn't. No sane and unbiased observer can ever even begin to argue that Lakers/Blazers/Suns/Sonics/Jazz were on the same level as the Pistons/Celtics. All except Sonics weren't even top 5 in the league during the very year Jordan faced them in the finals. Realistically though, Kobe has a shot to be in the finals for years to come so he can easily redeem himself.
    The differences between the defenses faced is not even close to proportional to the differences in performance between the two in the Finals.

    Heck, one could easily argue that the presence of Shaq cancels out the relative difference in defensive performance of the teams Kobe faced in the Finals (up to 2004 obviously).

    Kobe did indeed face tougher defenses in the Finals, but the difference is not nearly enough to justify the difference in performance.

  6. #21
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    Default Re: Statistically, who matches up with "Playoff Jordan"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatal9
    Kobe as the #1 option has averaged 30/5.6/5.4 on 47.8% and 1.6 stl over 38 games. Very comparable to those numbers. Also consider that he has faced a 50+ win team (aside from Utah this year with 48 wins) every series. This includes a trip to the finals and probably a championship this year.

    Wade imo still has been the best playoff performer. His stats are brought down by the series against the Bulls when he has played injured.

    Lebron's performance has been very poor considering the level of competition he has faced (3 series vs. bottom 5 defensive team, 2 against sub .500 teams, this accounts for 67% of series he has been in). He is at the bottom of the rung right now.
    Very good post taking into account context.

  7. #22
    Hardwood Hero Showtime's Avatar
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    Default Re: Statistically, who matches up with "Playoff Jordan"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Samurai Swoosh
    Very good post taking into account context.
    The problem is that he wasn't exactly taking a "back seat" to Shaq offensively, since he actually shot as much, or more, and Shaq takes a lot of pressure off of a SG.

  8. #23
    NBA rookie of the year Da_Realist's Avatar
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    Default Re: Statistically, who matches up with "Playoff Jordan"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatal9
    In comparing their finals performances, consider that MJ has never even come close to facing a defense as good as the '08 Celtics or the '04 Pistons in the finals. They actually have a higher defensive rating than any team MJ has ever faced though it is pretty close to 90s Knicks (but then again, Jordan had a huge size advantage in his matchup with Starks). More physical yes, but not more intelligent. It is nearly impossible for a player to get any sort of dribble penetration against those two teams because of the layer of defenders in the lane which is anchored by the DPOY. This really blocks Kobe, Lebron or Wade from exploding against a good defense. Not saying Jordan had it any easier because he had ten eyes on him at all times but so did Kobe and Lebron against the Celtics.
    Jordan had to go through the 80's Celtics, 80's Pistons (4 times), 90's Knicks (2 times with Pat Riley, once with JVG), 96 Sonics and 97 Heat. All of them are either greater or on par with 04 Pistons and 08 Celtics. Those teams were physical and intelligent.

    And size isn't the only factor that determines how good a defender someone is. For example, John Starks made the All-Defensive 2nd team in 93. And besides that, Jordan had to defend these guys too -- which took away from other parts of his game. John Starks was an offensive threat. Joe Dumars, Alvin Robertson, Dennis Johnson, Gary Payton, Gerald Wilkins, Hersey Hawkins, etc were all offensive threats that forced Jordan to expend energy on the defensive end -- which, in effect, took away from his offensive game.

  9. #24
    NBA sixth man of the year Indian guy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Statistically, who matches up with "Playoff Jordan"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatal9

    Lebron's performance has been very poor considering the level of competition he has faced (3 series vs. bottom 5 defensive team, 2 against sub .500 teams, this accounts for 67% of series he has been in). He is at the bottom of the rung right now.
    Making up BS as usual. LeBron's faced a BOTTOM 5 defensive team only once in his career - the 06-07 Wizards. He had NEVER faced a sub .500 team in the playoffs prior to facing Detroit this season.

    45% of LeBron's playoff series' have come against the 3 best defensive teams of this decade - Detroit, SA & Boston. I think it's downright amazing despite all that he's still closest to MJ's numbers out of the Big 3.

  10. #25
    NBA rookie of the year Da_Realist's Avatar
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    Default Re: Statistically, who matches up with "Playoff Jordan"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatal9
    Kobe as the #1 option has averaged 30/5.6/5.4 on 47.8% and 1.6 stl over 38 games. Very comparable to those numbers. Also consider that he has faced a 50+ win team (aside from Utah this year with 48 wins) every series. This includes a trip to the finals and probably a championship this year.
    Even if I take these averages and act like the rest of his 119 playoff games never happened, here is what Kobe would have to do to match MJ.

    Average 34.5 pts, 5.8 asts, 6.6 rebs, 2.2 stls and 1.0 blks per game over the next 141 playoff games. Even his best 38 playoff games don't match these averages.

  11. #26
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    Default Re: Statistically, who matches up with "Playoff Jordan"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Da_Realist
    Jordan had to go through the 80's Celtics, 80's Pistons (4 times), 90's Knicks (2 times with Pat Riley, once with JVG), 96 Sonics and 97 Heat. All of them are either greater or on par with 04 Pistons and 08 Celtics. Those teams were physical and intelligent.

    .
    Get real. The only teams Jordan faced even close to the Pistons and Celtics were the 80s Detroit and 90s Knicks.. and none of those teams had a KG or Ben Wallace type presence down low.

    The Detroit team that Kobe faced was one of the greatest defensive teams of all time.. no doubt. They were sick. So was Boston last year.. Posey, Rondo, Pierce, Ray, Tony Allen, Kendrick, KG.. thats a whole squad of guys that can play D.

  12. #27
    NBA sixth man of the year Indian guy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Statistically, who matches up with "Playoff Jordan"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Da_Realist
    Even his best 38 playoff games don't match these averages.
    27 of those games have come against the softest defenses imaginable - Phoenix, Denver and Utah. Kobe still couldn't outdo MJ's career averages

    That said, it would be downright moronic to only take Kobe's playoff statistics since he hit his peak. His averages from 2000 onwards would be more fair...since that's the season when he truly became a star player.
    Last edited by Indian guy; 04-29-2009 at 03:22 PM.

  13. #28
    NBA rookie of the year Da_Realist's Avatar
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    Default Re: Statistically, who matches up with "Playoff Jordan"?

    Quote Originally Posted by unbreakable
    Get real. The only teams Jordan faced even close to the Pistons and Celtics were the 80s Detroit and 90s Knicks.. and none of those teams had a KG or Ben Wallace type presence down low.

    The Detroit team that Kobe faced was one of the greatest defensive teams of all time.. no doubt. They were sick. So was Boston last year.. Posey, Rondo, Pierce, Ray, Tony Allen, Kendrick, KG.. thats a whole squad of guys that can play D.
    First off, by your own admission, Jordan faced teams comparable to the 04 Pistons/08 Celtics 6 times -- (88 -91 Pistons, 92-93 Knicks). Kobe faced the Pistons ONCE and the Celtics ONCE.

    Secondly, you're just wrong about the other teams. Those were great defensive teams.

  14. #29
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    Default Re: Statistically, who matches up with "Playoff Jordan"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Da_Realist
    First off, by your own admission, Jordan faced teams comparable to the 04 Pistons/08 Celtics 6 times -- (88 -91 Pistons, 92-93 Knicks). Kobe faced the Pistons ONCE and the Celtics ONCE.

    Secondly, you're just wrong about the other teams. Those were great defensive teams.
    Those defensive teams were REALLY GOOD.. not GREAT. You really think Larry Bird and Danny Ainge's slow ass could stop Jordan? Mchale and Parish' slow ass? Meanwhile Kobe is going at KG, Pierce, Posey..feel me?

    Anyways, this entire thread is flawed because
    A) Kobe wasnt the man from day 1
    B) Youre a known Kobe hater
    C) You dont know shlt

  15. #30
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    Default Re: Statistically, who matches up with "Playoff Jordan"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatal9
    In comparing their finals performances, consider that MJ has never even come close to facing a defense as good as the '08 Celtics or the '04 Pistons in the finals. They actually have a higher defensive rating than any team MJ has ever faced though it is pretty close to 90s Knicks (but then again, Jordan had a huge size advantage in his matchup with Starks). More physical yes, but not more intelligent. It is nearly impossible for a player to get any sort of dribble penetration against those two teams because of the layer of defenders in the lane which is anchored by the DPOY. This really blocks Kobe, Lebron or Wade from exploding against a good defense. Not saying Jordan had it any easier because he had ten eyes on him at all times but so did Kobe and Lebron against the Celtics.

    I recently watched a couple of games from the Celtics/Lakers and Cavs/Celtics series and the defense is absolutely unrelenting. There is no chance at all for them to make a move in any direction because a help defender is ready to turn or has already turned to defend them right from the first dribble. Lebron only went off for one game in that series and it was when he was hitting ridiculous jumpers. Kobe who has a better jumpshot had such a hard time because not only was it impossible to get penetration, he was defended by a player 2 inches taller than him, who also happens to play excellent perimeter defense (again, I reiterate, Starks could never bother Jordan's shots, he was quick off his feet but the reach just wasn't there). The best I've seen Jordan defended in the finals was against the Sonics but even then he was uncharacteristically missing shots he would usually hit.

    I don't think it is fair to make a conclusion of finals performances just yet when you take into account that Kobe went up against all-time great defenses in the finals while Jordan didn't. No sane and unbiased observer can ever even begin to argue that Lakers/Blazers/Suns/Sonics/Jazz were on the same level as the Pistons/Celtics. All except Sonics weren't even top 5 in the league during the very year Jordan faced them in the finals. Realistically though, Kobe has a shot to be in the finals for years to come so he can easily redeem himself.
    Didn't Jordan himself state that Joe Dumars was most difficult single defender he ever had to face? And Dumars was listed at 6'3. Gary Payton, another notable defender, was listed at 6'4. John Starks was also listed at 6'3", the same height as Joe Dumars, and one inch shorter than Gary Payton. So I don't really buy your defender's height argument. I don't actually think anyone does.

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