ISH All-time Top 25 Forwards Project #17: Dennis Rodman vs Elvin Hayes.

[raiderfan19]

Im actually going to try to avoid the dirk portion of this discussion. Everyone that cares to know, knows my opinions and my reasons for those opinions(i will point out my issues with erving in respect to him later though)

[Kblaze8855]

Im actually going to try to avoid the dirk portion of this discussion. Everyone that cares to know, knows my opinions and my reasons for those opinions(i will point out my issues with erving in respect to him later though)

very well. Im just pointing out that I find it likely that your comments on KG and Barkley are related to your arguments with them vs Dirk which I think should help you see why most dont care about those things as much as you might. As I said...I do it too. I have no doubt that years of arguing MJ vs Nique(80s...in the south) and later Pippen vs him...and those pippen arguments coming down to "If all Nique does is score better while Pippen is a great scorer himself...and Pippen is better at the other 95% of what you do in a game...how is Pippen not better" have done a lot to shape how I judge players.

I feel it likely that your years of being anti KG/barkley/whoever is compared to dirk the most is making you judge some guys in ways the general public wouldnt.

I have no doubt the general public doesnt care much that Dirk, Nique, and others arent exactly....do everything guys. And I assure you...the general public doesnt care what the 1992 Suns or 2006 Timberwolves record was either.

[Fatal9]

Looks like Hayes won this easily...

[Smoke117]

Two things...

1.

You have to think about the level of player from here on out.

From here on its...guys who put up 36ppg and led weak teams to rings, and 12 time all NBA guys, and people who were all stars every season, won MVP, and dropped 50 points in game 7 to win a ring....and guys with 8 rings 6 of them as a superstar, or NBA and ABA MVPs who won rings in both made like 4 NBA finals and 6 or 7 total and on and on.

This is the 17th place vote and we have a guy who is top 8 all time in scoring top 4 in rebounds and would be like 8th in blocks if they counted his first 4 years....who was putting up 28/17....went to 3 finals...and won it all.

Thats voted on at 17.

Its tough justto break these guys up. Short of Mchale and Nique there isnt anyone left ive not seen ranked as a top 20 all time player...period. forget forwards. They are all elites from here on out. Just a matter of what you value most.

And 2...

About the list...

No better way I could see. It was just a way to get the names together. Opinions are too varied. One guys list as I was counting had rodman #12. Some had him out of the top 25 and not even an honorable mention.

Democracy doesnt always give the result an individual wants. But its fair.

Besides I barely care about the finals list now. Just something to discuss.

70% of the posters here are idiots so screw democracy. The guard list ended in a debacle and this list will end the same way. I can't even care about it.

[Gotterdammerung]

70% of the posters here are idiots so screw democracy. The guard list ended in a debacle and this list will end the same way. I can't even care about it.

It doesn't matter where. The results of a democratic vote is always by default a victory for mediocrity. Only the mediocre tries to justify it as "fair."

[Kblaze8855]

So im mediocre and you are what? Exceptional?

I think this comes down to something I noticed once...

nobody ever looked at a list of the greatest ____ like this and felt it was correct. Its always wrong...unless they made it.

I mean...I look at your forwards list:

1. Duncan
2. Bird
3. Malone
4. Havlicek
5. Pettit
6. Pippen
7. James
8. Dr. J
9. Barkley
10. Barry
11. KG
12. Baylor
13. McHale
14. Hayes
15. Lucas
16. Wilkins
17. Rodman
18. King
19. Nowitzski
20. Pierce
21. Cunningham
22. Dantley
23. Kemp
24. Gus
25. Gasol


And find it laughable. As would many. If I showed it to most people...even most non idiots...they would have many problems. some would say Dirk is far too low. That your your 4th best player himself ranks your #12 way ahead of him. Many would ask what Nique actually accomplished...ever.

And all would be valid questions.

Comes right down to it...its impossible to make a list that virtually everyone seeing it doesnt totally disagree with. Once you stop trying and just see it for what it is...something to talk about....its less stressing.

Im annoyed people think Reggie Miller was better than Tmac and Dennis Johnson when people at the time wouldnt even make him all nba 3rd teamer. But guess what?

As much as id like to...I dont get to decide what other people think.

We just had a guy claim the list wrong because a guy you listed 19th might not make the top 11. who is right?

You? Because...you think it?

[1987_Lakers]

Looks like Hayes wins, who is next on the list?

[Kblaze8855]

i'll post it before I go to bed. cooking something now

[Gotterdammerung]

So im mediocre and you are what? Exceptional?

Think logically.

If the great majority of people are idiots and you think the collective judgment of idiots is fair, then you get what you deserve: a mediocre decision.

The old canard: In a democracy, people always get the government they deserve.

I think this comes down to something I noticed once...
nobody ever looked at a list of the greatest ____ like this and felt it was correct. Its always wrong...unless they made it.
I mean...I look at your forwards list:
And find it laughable. As would many. If I showed it to most people...even most non idiots...they would have many problems. some would say Dirk is far too low. That your your 4th best player himself ranks your #12 way ahead of him. Many would ask what Nique actually accomplished...ever.
And all would be valid questions.
Comes right down to it...its impossible to make a list that virtually everyone seeing it doesnt totally disagree with. Once you stop trying and just see it for what it is...something to talk about....its less stressing.
Im annoyed people think Reggie Miller was better than Tmac and Dennis Johnson when people at the time wouldnt even make him all nba 3rd teamer. But guess what?
As much as id like to...I dont get to decide what other people think.

I actually agree.

But then again, I don't have to agree with what others think. Particularly if they're homers in the first place incapable of looking past their favorite teams/players.

We just had a guy claim the list wrong because a guy you listed 19th might not make the top 11. who is right?
You? Because...you think it?

Nah, I will argue my case. Just like in any other thread. Not because I just happen to think it. And if you think the reasoning is solid, you'll change your mind.

My list is open for revision -- I originally had Rodman ahead of Elvin Hayes until this thread.