ISH All-time Top 25 Forwards Project #17: Dennis Rodman vs Elvin Hayes.

[HylianNightmare]

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[G-train]

Hayes.

To sum up most votes for him, he was a superstar player and scored, rebounded and blocked shots.
Rodman a good player that rebounded and defended, and passed well.

[Kblaze8855]

Dirk pippen and baylor are all going to be too low if they are in the next five.

This. The initial voting on this is all messed up.

Two things...

1.

You have to think about the level of player from here on out.

From here on its...guys who put up 36ppg and led weak teams to rings, and 12 time all NBA guys, and people who were all stars every season, won MVP, and dropped 50 points in game 7 to win a ring....and guys with 8 rings 6 of them as a superstar, or NBA and ABA MVPs who won rings in both made like 4 NBA finals and 6 or 7 total and on and on.

This is the 17th place vote and we have a guy who is top 8 all time in scoring top 4 in rebounds and would be like 8th in blocks if they counted his first 4 years....who was putting up 28/17....went to 3 finals...and won it all.

Thats voted on at 17.

Its tough justto break these guys up. Short of Mchale and Nique there isnt anyone left ive not seen ranked as a top 20 all time player...period. forget forwards. They are all elites from here on out. Just a matter of what you value most.

And 2...

About the list...

No better way I could see. It was just a way to get the names together. Opinions are too varied. One guys list as I was counting had rodman #12. Some had him out of the top 25 and not even an honorable mention.

Democracy doesnt always give the result an individual wants. But its fair.

Besides I barely care about the finals list now. Just something to discuss.

[L.Kizzle]

Elvin Hayes, will explain in detail later.

[raiderfan19]

It would have been simpler/better to start from the top and work your way down with more than one candidate. In addittion to the amazing things you listed, you are also going to have multiple guys who missed the playoffs multiple times in their primes, guys without rings and so forth.

[raiderfan19]

Part of this may just be us classifying certain players at different positions but i see no way you have more than 8 guys listed above those 3. Thats even if you include lebron(whom im assuming hasnt been ranked yet but havent checked) and its kind of ridiculous to rate him above elgin baylor at this point(let alone dirk)


Edit, i looked and im pretty sure i know who the other 11 are. You should move at least erving and gervin down

[Kblaze8855]

Simpler but not interesting. 5-6 people to vote on at once...none of them are actually getting discussed other thanthe biggest name at the moment. After the first 5 or 6 big names? Eh.

besides I didnt create the system. Just took over in the middle. People seemed to want it done this way. Or at least not mind it.

Far as people who missed the playoffs or dont have rings...im gonna have to file that under "So what".

Off the top of my head only 5 people from here on out didnt win a ring. One is still in his prime, 2 of them always were and will be ranked over plenty of people who did win rings(as they should), one made the finals like 8 times, and the other is Nique. And if Nique has the worst career in question?

Im not mad at that.

[1987_Lakers]

Elvin Hayes

Rodman simply isn't on his level. This is a Superstar vs an All-Star.

[Kblaze8855]

Gervin was on the guards list(for some reason...I always saw him as a 3). And Doctor J? Why would he move down?

What is there to say he didnt do?

Especially when you seem to want Baylor ranked highly. Baylor was by most accounts the prototype for Doctor J types(at least if we ignore Connie hawkins). But he wasnt just...better. He didnt actually accomplish anything Doc didnt. He made 7 or 8 finals in 60s. Doc made 4 in the late 70s and early 80s and won it all which Baylor never did. Doc was always winning. He made like 9 conference finals and unlike Baylor(at least early in his career) he didnt just have to win 2 games to do that.

I dont see any good reason to have baylor over Doc. He play better? No. Was he a more elite player in his time? No. Not really. Baylor was second in MVP voting once and third twice. Doc won and was second and third. neither was just....better...than the best bigmen in his league though. Did he accomplish anything Doc didnt? No. In 16 years in the NBA or ABA Doc was at least in the conference finals 10 or 11 times and in the finals 7.

His NBA career alone puts him over Baylor to me. His ability to play putsh im over Baylor to me. And his success should as well. He got it done. And even if it was with Moses...baylor didnt get it done given Wilt Chamberlain and Jerry West at the same time. Not calling the guy out or anything...I just dont see why hes better than Doctor J.


We calling Elgin better just for existing when more shots were taken which allowed him to have better numbers? Guy was shooting 25, 28, 33, and 29 shots a game in his top seasons. Doc only shot 19 times a game in 3 NBA seasons and he won the MVP in one of them and was second and third in the other two.

He was even an all star as many time in the NBA as Baylor despite playing his first 5 years in the ABA.

Doc gets really overlooked to me. People act like he ws just flashy and look at somewhat unimpressive numbers(compared to the Baylors and Birds at least). But he just wasnt the type to shoot a lot.

When I watch him hes always in the flow of the game. At least outside his finals games. He put up 30 a game his first finals(40 point game 7) and 25+ in the next 2 and in 83 he didnt score big but once he had the chance to lock up the title...Philly down in the final game in 83...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zv6tZ...eature=related

Down 3. he steals it and goes coast to coast. He comes down and gets a layup and 1 and makes the Ft. Then he hits the jumper over Magic to finish it off.

Doc could have scored a lot more than he did. Im not gonna discount him because he chose to let his teammates operrate when he had capable ones.

If he went and shot 33 times a night im quite sure he wouldnt have been scoring 21 ppg in his prime.

[Droid101]

Elvin Hayes

Rodman simply isn't on his level. This is a Superstar vs an All-Star.

Rodman was better at rebounding than any player was better at any other facet of the game than the next best guy.

Rodman is more valuable to any team.

I take Rodman easily in this one.

[WillC]

Short of Mchale and Nique there isnt anyone left ive not seen ranked as a top 20 all time player...period.

In 1996, in Sport magazine's 50th anniversary issue, Peter Vecsey ranked Kevin McHale as the 13th greatest player of all-time.

[raiderfan19]

Ill argue why he should be lower when he comes up. As for baylor, i dont care if hes alot higher, i just said he should be above bron as far as what lbj has already accomplished

Edit-as far as titles go, yes there are mitigating factors and i dont really hold that against barkley or malone. But not making the playoffs multiple times in their primes should absolutely be held against kg and chuck

[Gotterdammerung]

Elvin Hayes: 16 years, 12 quality, 12 All-Stars, top 5 in 75, 77, 79 & top 10 in 73, 74, & 76. Best player on 3 finalists. Peaked at 28-17 for 3 years, pulled 26-11 in '75 playoffs.

Pros: Very durable, good scorer & rebounder.

Cons: the 70s version of Karl Malone (a bit more athletic and elastic, but less skilled). A horrible choke artist (Bob Ryan of Boston Globe) who performed well throughout games, but disappeared in the clutch (133 points in the first 6 games of the 78 Finals, but only 19 in the 4th quarters). That turnaround jumper is a loser's shot for bigmen.
Cracked top 6 in MVP voting* only 3 times (5th in 74, 3rd in 75, 3rd in 79).

Elvin Hayes was on another level than Dennis Rodman, although he was a flawed superstar who probably wasn't easy to build around unless you had a big man who negated his flaws and a solid back court of clutch shooters.

Dennis Rodman is the greatest role player of all time -- as long you had better guys on your team than him.

* players voted MVP till 1980.

[Kblaze8855]

Ill argue why he should be lower when he comes up. As for baylor, i dont care if hes alot higher, i just said he should be above bron as far as what lbj has already accomplished

Edit-as far as titles go, yes there are mitigating factors and i dont really hold that against barkley or malone. But not making the playoffs multiple times in their primes should absolutely be held against kg and chuck

I understand that as a Dirk fan such things have been argued by you many many many times to the point that its kinda the old standby thing to use against his rivals(not really judging...my love of Pippen and Jordan no doubt makes me more prone to lean towards the more complete players when the issue comes up because thats been my reasoning for ranking them over their rivals so long...its hard to ignore it in other discussions).

But really...

When Jordan, Wilt, Kareem, Oscar, Moses, Hakeem, Baylor, Kobe and so on...guys many consider top 10 if not top 3...have all led 40 and under win teams while arguably the best player in the league or at least while in or near their primes...I dont think you will convince many to hold shit like that against Barkley and KG.

And I know you add the multiple times qualifier to wipe out some of those players but if they were in the situation that led them to be sub .500 many times they would have been it...many times. And just because a guy like Baylor makes the playoffs with 36 wins or Jordan makes it with 30(injured year....30 wins got them in) or 40 and some guys now miss it with 48...doesnt make it a greater accomplishment. Plenty of superstars led average and poor teams. Many did so several times. But they arent judged by that.

Players are never judged by their worst seasons. Never have. never will be.

07 with Ricky Davis wont matter any more to KGs legacy than Wilt on one of the worst teams in the NBA or Kareem missing the playoffs in the late 70s. Its nothing but trivia in the end. People know better than to judge them by it much if at all.

[D.J.]

Hayes


Just on another level. Top scorer, good rebounder, and good shot blocker. Granted his shot selection was rather questionable, he was a go to player on Finals teams.