The official jlauber and Wilt Chamberlain thread

[jlauber]

BTW, and regarding the 10 Gilmore-Hakeem H2H's from the 84-85 and 85-86 seasons, Dickwad challenged my facts...and

as always, came out looking like a fool...

http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=259815

Here were his initial responses...

Jlauber, you're full of shit as always

This is the correct stats regarding Olajuwon's head to head vs Artis;

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=olajuha01

And Artis didn't even face Olajuwon 10 times from 84-86..

and again...

The moron, Jlauber, even posted the wrong stats and he made up games they didn't even play against each other..

and yet again...

Hakeem fans will argue that you're full of shit and that you posted the wrong stats..

and here was MY reply

Dickwad...

Do you EVER do ANY research?

They faced each other SIX times in the 84-85 season. I don't have time to pull the numbers right now, but Gilmore

dominated Hakeem in those six meetings.

Of course, all YOU have to do is look up the actual H2H's YOURSELF!

What a complete IDIOT!

But, the idiot wanted to come back for even more...


http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthr...=259815&page=2

You're the complete idiot, you always have time..

Show the stats from those 6 games from 84-85, just share the link you got it from..

So, as always, I shot him down...

Here again, I WILL do the RESEARCH, unlike yourself who NEVER does.


Quote:
84-85 season


1.

Gilmore 8-11 11-13 27
Olajuwon 7-12 0-1 14

2.

Gilmore 9-14 5-6 23
Olajuwon 11-20 5-7 27

3.

Gilmore 4-7 4-7 12
Olajuwon 10-18 2-5 22

4.

Gilmore 11-18 13-17 35
Olajuwon 6-14 6-9 18

5.

Gilmore 10-13 12-13 32
Olajuwon 6-13 4-4 16

6.

Gilmore 10-15 9-10 29
Olajuwon 7-18 2-3 16


Gilmore 52-78 54-66 158
Olajuwon 47-95 19-29 113

Gilmore .666 26.3 ppg
Olajuwon .494 18.8 ppg





Now, I don't have much time (I have to work for a living), I will give you ONE link. From that YOU can do the rest.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...504070SAS.html

BTW, ANYONE can do this. You just have to take the time. It's all out there.

Now, whether Hakeem was actually defending Gilmore, or if it was Sampson, it does not matter. In Gilmore's first ten

games against Hakeem's teams, Gilmore was the better player.

[jlauber]

wilt blocking kareem's sky hook
http://youtu.be/EwHP04TWOps


but let's stop acting like kareem's sky hook is totally unblockable. he barely had any lift on the first block. 2nd block was impressive, but still kareem's hand was barely over the rim when the ball was released. wilt with freaky length timed it perfectly and got a clean block. looks like his finger tip is about foot over the rim meaning guys like dwight or mcgee could also block that shot if they time it right.

Keep in mind that Chamberlain battled Kareem in 27 of their 28 H2H games, from age 34 on, at around 300 lbs., and on a surgically repaired knee. And, he was blocking the skyhook in the air and at it's apex.

Then, think about this. A mid-60's Wilt had TWO eye-witness accounts, one by Philly sports icon, Sonny Hill, and the other by longtime Sixer trainer, Al Domenico, who claimed they witnessed Wilt touching the top of the backboard (something Wilt acknowledged himself, of course.)

Now, take that mid-60's Wilt, at around 280-290 lbs, and with more speed and athleticism, and pit him against the Kareem that an old Chamberlain faced. There would be no telling how many more blocks of the "unblockable" skyhook that the world would have witnessed. It would have certainly been a common sight.

[jlauber]

These bridge arguments were among the some of the best post I've seen on this board or among all of the boards I've read. They provide context for change and how the game didn't change.

It takes courage to change your mind. The bridge argument encouraged Jlauber to change his prior thoughts on how things change. Its not being hypocritical or twisted, its called moving on to a better place with your ideas and how they apply to the game. You can't really grow unless you do that.

Thanks again. I have long respected your opinions here, and you are among the best posters on the site.

Something else to consider, too. As we have been finding out more-and-more, players from the 80's to current have been "over-measured." Ben Wallace was really 6-7, and not 6-9. Dwight Howard is barely over 6-9. Hakeem was nowhere near 7-0, and was barely 6-10. Sampson may not have even been a full 7-2, and it was running joke that he was 7-4.

On the fip side, Wilt was taller than his listed 7-1. Russell was taller than his listed 6-9. Thurmond was a full 6-11, but had a higher reach than Wilt (who had a 7-8 wingspan.) In fact, you could add at least an inch to nearly all of the "pre-80" players, most of whom were measured in barefeet.

The reality is/was, players in the past 20-30 years are, at best, only slightly taller than those of the 60's and 70's.

[nightprowler10]

I have said it before and I'll say it again, I have had a lot of respect for jlauber since I joined here. Regardless of if I agree or disagree with some of his points, the fact is that he reaches his conclusions based on logical reasoning, even if it is backed by strong bias. That's more than anyone can say about almost any other poster on ISH.

That said, I feel the main reason he catches so much flak from the average ISHer is because he so often just slams everybody with a wall of information. I imagine if he addressed the point in discussion more often rather than just throwing his textbook of facts at everyone he debates with, he'd get through more often.

[Yung D-Will]

The second people actually start to give Wilt respect, will be the day when jlauber will no longer need to post.

[nightprowler10]

Most credible people have Wilt pretty high in their rankings already. So why waste your time on trolls?

[Inactive]

Most credible people have Wilt pretty high in their rankings already. So why waste your time on trolls?

It's unlikely that you'll convince the person you're arguing with, but your posts can still influence the neutral readers. Since most people didn't see his career for themselves, their opinion can be easily swayed by trolls, if no one provides a counter argument. Even if most of them rank Wilt high by default, it's useful to solidify his status in their minds, by teaching, or reminding them of the reasons for his high ranking.

[millwad]

As usual Jlauber writes nonsense without writing the full context of our conversation.

90% of all his "ownage" is him "proving" stuff by posting quotes, not actual facts, but quotes.

This self-proclaimed historian once tried to make a list of all big's Wilt faced in the NBA and he completely made a fool of himself. He listed players who never even played in the NBA, players who just played in the ABA and college players who arrived after Wilt retired as Wilt's competition just to hype him up.

This is the same guy who changed his mind after watching box-scores and youtube-videos, his info is pure copy and paste job, he even uses youtube-comments as sources but still you people think he's a "historian".

This is the same guy who wrote garbage like "Kareem got 20 skyhooks blocked by Wilt in '72 series" and when confronted he had the worst comeback of all-time, he told us to prove his statement wrong..

When that nonsense didn't work he told us that he remembers that Kareem actually got 20 blocks blocked, the same guy who couldn't remember how good the 60's and early 70's were suddenly remembered 40 year old games in detail.

The man is a hoax...

[millwad]

Then, think about this. A mid-60's Wilt had TWO eye-witness accounts, one by Philly sports icon, Sonny Hill, and the other by longtime Sixer trainer, Al Domenico, who claimed they witnessed Wilt touching the top of the backboard (something Wilt acknowledged himself, of course.)
.

Yeah, I can find 1000 eye-witness accounts who have seen the Loch Ness monster, it still doesn't prove a crap, you clown.

[millwad]

Actually, we have a considerable amount of evidence clearing pointing to Hakeem TRYING to guard a 38-39 year old Kareem in most of their H2H's. There was VIDEO footage of the Kareem's 40 point game against Hakeem on YouTube, (and it might still be there in it's entirety, but I am too lazy to look), but here is the edited version (and probably edited by a Rocket's fan) of that 40 point game. In it you will see Hakeem as the prmary defender.

Still spamming the living crap about rookie and 2nd year pro Olajuwon having problem against Kareem. But as always you never menntion the fact that 2nd year pro Olajuwon absolutely abused Kareem and the Lakers in the '86 playoffs. Spam some more about meaningless regular season games, oldie, fact still remains that 2nd year pro Olajuwon who by no means was close to his prime absolutely destroyed Kareem in the playoffs along with his Laker buddies.

As for the Gilmore-Hakeem H2H's, I am not certain how much the two defended each other, but CLEARLY, in their first TEN STRAIGHT H2H games, a 35-36 year old Gilmore, in the 84-85 and 85-86 seasons, put up these numbers against either Hakeem (incidently they were lined up against each other in the box scores)...

You still don't know if Olajuwon actually guarded Gilmore in those games and still you're spamming about them, you're such a clown. You watch boxscores day in and out and then make judgements based on them boxscores, you even created a Olajuwon vs Gilmore thread when you didn't even know if Hakeem even guarded him...

[millwad]

Continuing...

Now, the previous post brings me back to Dickwad's "credibilty." After I researched those Kareem-Hakeem H2H's, and back in around 2008, or so, I completely changed my mind on just how much better the newer generation of athletes were, as compared to those of even the 60's.
.

Which only proves what kind of a clown you are.
You changed your mind over boxscores, you didn't even see the games and you challenged me when I told you that Kareem got abused by 2nd year pro Olajuwon in the '86 playoffs.

What happened with watching basketball since the 60's?

And that you even make a judgement on whole era's based on a matchup between Kareem and rookie and 2nd year pro Olajuwon only proves that you're clueless and stupid. And especially when you never mention the fact that Olajuwon was no where close to his prime, the fact that Olajuwon only had proper training just a couple of years prior to his rookie season and barely had no game in the beginning of his college career and that 2nd year pro who was no where close to his prime absolutely destroyed the Lakers and Kareem in the playoffs..

Keep digging your own grave.

[DKLaker]

Thanks again...



I am too tired to research much of it now, but Kareem got the best of Unseld in the '71 Finals (albeit, the 6-7 Unseld outrebounded him in that series.)

And, I have posted the H2H's before, but Chamberlain just murdered Unseld in the '68-69 H2H's (which is when Unseld won the ROY and MVP...including one game in which he outscored Unseld, 25-4, while outrebounding Wes, 38-9.) Then, in their first meeting the very next season, and before Wilt shredded his knee, Chamberlain dumped a 38 point game on Unseld.

U da Man

[Owl]

Still spamming the living crap about rookie and 2nd year pro Olajuwon having problem against Kareem. But as always you never menntion the fact that 2nd year pro Olajuwon absolutely abused Kareem and the Lakers in the '86 playoffs. Spam some more about meaningless regular season games, oldie, fact still remains that 2nd year pro Olajuwon who by no means was close to his prime absolutely destroyed Kareem in the playoffs along with his Laker buddies.





You still don't know if Olajuwon actually guarded Gilmore in those games and still you're spamming about them, you're such a clown. You watch boxscores day in and out and then make judgements based on them boxscores, you even created a Olajuwon vs Gilmore thread when you didn't even know if Hakeem even guarded him...

Not that I care because the Jlauber vs Millwad thread has happened many times before and they tend to be full of ad hominiem attacks and attempts to catch the other person out rather than reasoned big picture debates of the facts. Perhaps one side more than the other but I'll let other people decide on that.

But to Gilmore versus Olajuwon you'd expect Olajuwon to have been guarded by Olajuwon because:
a) They were the ones playing the center position
and
b) Sampson didn't have the lower body heft or low center of gravity to keep Gilmore from getting great post position. Not that Olajuwon necessarily did but he had by far the better chance.
In any case if you had chosen to reject an argument based on the assumption that they matched up you wouldn't be in this position instead you have repeatedly engaged in debate, implying Jlauber had fabricated games in which the two played in the 84-86 period.

[Linspired]

Actually, we have a considerable amount of evidence clearing pointing to Hakeem TRYING to guard a 38-39 year old Kareem in most of their H2H's. There was VIDEO footage of the Kareem's 40 point game against Hakeem on YouTube, (and it might still be there in it's entirety, but I am too lazy to look), but here is the edited version (and probably edited by a Rocket's fan) of that 40 point game. In it you will see Hakeem as the prmary defender.

i find that hard to believe. and i did watch that footage before. that video really doesn't prove much. i saw sampson guarding kareem more than akeem guarding kareem. i vaguely remember watching this series as young kid, and only thing i remember was watching 2 tall dudes going at each other. i was saying to myself. 'hm.. kareem must be 7ft 4 too.' i always was fascinated with tall people. lol wish this game was on espn classic. i would have to find tapes and really watch it. if i was a coach, i don't put hakeem on kareem when i have a guy who can match kareem's size. sampson was weak, but it's not like kareem was bulldozing anybody at this point of his career. you gotta match him with length because kareem would just shoot over akeem all day every day.

and i really think you are underrating late 30's kareem. he was an efficient machine playing in a perfect system with a perfect role. he didn't have do too much. he just had to pick a spot and score, and he did that magnificently. no doubt he aged well. and this is one of the reason why Magic is top 3 all time IMO. he just made everybody better. i really believe Magic is the one who made kareem to play as long as he did. playing with magic is just so fun, and players know they will get the ball in a perfect spot.

no doubt wilt will be great in any era. but there really is no definite proof on how great will he be in 80's, 90's or 00's. i think wilt's dominance will be more defensive than offense. and wilt will probably be 25/16 type of a player. shaq like, but with less points, but more rebounds. i just don't think the era we live in favors a center scoring all the time.

[Linspired]

i'm not gonna pretend i watched every kareem vs. akeem match up. i didn't. but it's not a rocket science why kareem had a great success against akeem whenever akeem was guarding kareem.