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Old 10-19-2019, 09:45 AM   #61
tontoz
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Default Re: PJax was right: Abdul-Rauf like Curry

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
The idea that you can perfectly evaluate the pure shooting ability of guys taking shots we don’t have in front of us to see by shooting percentages is totally indefensible. It’s trying so hard to be objective it loses all common sense.

Without seeing someone play and knowing the circumstances there is simply no way to know why shots did or did not go in 30 years ago. A guy could make every insane contested 19 footer he ever took....get all his layups blocked....and have terrible shooting numbers.

When you have nothing but numbers you don’t even have the basis for a conversation. I just remembered it was you telling me a while back that Isiah Thomas was a bad scorer due to TS percentage and I made an internal note to not bother in the future. Some people are too far into numbers to be reasoned with.

Decades of experience shooting on the highest level does in fact give someone an advantage evaluating shooting over someone who has nothing but division. Every single great shooter who saw him play ranks him as one of them because they have perspective that your simplistic view can’t account for. Substituting */* for the first hand evaluations of GOAT shooters is the worst kind of feigned expertise.

There’s a reason you still send a scout to see a player with his shooting numbers available. The paper tells you nothing about why any shot did or didn’t go in. Without that you might as well wipe your ass with it. Without context we aren’t even talking basketball. I like to talk basketball. It’s why I’m here.

I can talk division with my phone.



Once again pure nonsense. Just because players say that Rauf's style was similar to Curry doesn't make Rauf a great shooter. Rauf never had a season where he shot 40% from 3 or 50% on 2s. He wasn't a volume scorer either. He just wasn't that good from anywhere other than the foul line.


Isiah was a bad shooter from everywhere outside 3 feet. He shot only 76% from the foul line, 29% from 3, 47% on 2s. He was good at beating guys off the dribble, getting to the rim and finishing inside. If he had to take a jumper or a foul shot he just wasn't that good. Do you have some excuse as to why he could only shoot 76% from the foul line?



His ability to beat guys off the dribble is what made him a great player. After he beat his man it forced the defense to rotate to prevent him from scoring at the rim. That set up easy shots for other guys. But that is a separate discussion from his ability (or lack thereof) as a shooter.

Last edited by tontoz : 10-19-2019 at 09:54 AM.
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Old 10-19-2019, 09:50 AM   #62
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Default Re: PJax was right: Abdul-Rauf like Curry

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Originally Posted by scuzzy
I watched Mark Price play at Richfield Coliseum


He's the closest player to resembling Curry and by close I mean Steph is substantially far better


It is hard to describe just how great Steph is as a shooter when comparing him to other players.

Using a tier structure...

Tier 1 - Steph

Tier 2 - nobody

Tier 3 - Price/Reggie/Nash/ Ray/ Dirk...

That is the best i can do.
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Old 10-19-2019, 10:38 AM   #63
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Default Re: PJax was right: Abdul-Rauf like Curry

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Originally Posted by tontoz
It is hard to describe just how great Steph is as a shooter when comparing him to other players.

Using a tier structure...

Tier 1 - Steph

Tier 2 - nobody

Tier 3 - Price/Reggie/Nash/ Ray/ Dirk...

That is the best i can do.
He's quite easy to describe . He's the best 3pt shooter ever.

From 11-12ft to the 3pt line, Steph barely takes those shots. So to say he's an all around better shooter than those you listed above is quite funny..... especially Dirk.

If your team is down by one, you going to go to Steph for a 3pt shot? Cause you know he barely shoots mid-range. You know the rim will be protected greatly in that situation, so rule that out. Or you going to go with Dirk who can hit from anywhere inside the arc with consistency??

It's a pretty easy decision on who to take.
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Old 10-19-2019, 11:17 AM   #64
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Default Re: PJax was right: Abdul-Rauf like Curry

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorP
Watching Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf is like watching Steph Curry in the 90s.

Here he is against the 72-win Bulls.

The resemblance is uncanny.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WLz1FrEUhQ

(Phil Jackson once made the comparison.)
not even close Mahmoud has a high release point which is text book /
Curry hero baller has a release point in front of his face.
/
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Old 10-19-2019, 11:20 AM   #65
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Default Re: PJax was right: Abdul-Rauf like Curry

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Originally Posted by tontoz
Once again pure nonsense. Just because players say that Rauf's style was similar to Curry doesn't make Rauf a great shooter. Rauf never had a season where he shot 40% from 3 or 50% on 2s. He wasn't a volume scorer either. He just wasn't that good from anywhere other than the foul line.


Isiah was a bad shooter from everywhere outside 3 feet. He shot only 76% from the foul line, 29% from 3, 47% on 2s. He was good at beating guys off the dribble, getting to the rim and finishing inside. If he had to take a jumper or a foul shot he just wasn't that good. Do you have some excuse as to why he could only shoot 76% from the foul line?



His ability to beat guys off the dribble is what made him a great player. After he beat his man it forced the defense to rotate to prevent him from scoring at the rim. That set up easy shots for other guys. But that is a separate discussion from his ability (or lack thereof) as a shooter.

granted OP referenced 2 players in 2 different era's / but your taking it to a different level talking about Zeke / like he was below average.
Last time I looked he was top 50 players in history of the league when they started that crap. Besides isn't he in the hall
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Old 10-19-2019, 11:21 AM   #66
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Default Re: PJax was right: Abdul-Rauf like Curry

Tontoz displaying a very high iq
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Old 10-19-2019, 11:28 AM   #67
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Default Re: PJax was right: Abdul-Rauf like Curry

As I recall it came from an argument about Thomas and Stockton when his general point was due to shooting percentages Isiah Thomas was not a good scorer at which point every single person who watched basketball at the time, every coach who ever lived, and the entire pool of nba players from the era had their eyes roll in unison. Hes not gonna evaluate basketball playing beyond Let me google this true shooting percentage.... so its best to not engage. I knew that going in and should have followed my own advice.
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Old 10-19-2019, 11:56 AM   #68
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Default Re: PJax was right: Abdul-Rauf like Curry

Lamar Odom is like Magic Johnson

Tyrus Thomas is like Bill Russell
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Old 10-19-2019, 12:24 PM   #69
tontoz
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Default Re: PJax was right: Abdul-Rauf like Curry

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
As I recall it came from an argument about Thomas and Stockton when his general point was due to shooting percentages Isiah Thomas was not a good scorer at which point every single person who watched basketball at the time, every coach who ever lived, and the entire pool of nba players from the era had their eyes roll in unison. Hes not gonna evaluate basketball playing beyond Let me google this true shooting percentage.... so its best to not engage. I knew that going in and should have followed my own advice.


I have plenty of discussions that don't involve shooting. However TS is the primary factor that determines which team wins the game. If Team A has a higher TS than Team B, the only way for Team B to with the game is the get more possessions (more rebounds, fewer turnovers and fouls).

Some people fall back on the eye test when the facts don't match their opinions. The scoreboard doesn't care what a player looks like when he shoots. It only cares whether or not the ball goes in.
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Old 10-19-2019, 12:26 PM   #70
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Default Re: PJax was right: Abdul-Rauf like Curry

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasper
granted OP referenced 2 players in 2 different era's / but your taking it to a different level talking about Zeke / like he was below average.
Last time I looked he was top 50 players in history of the league when they started that crap. Besides isn't he in the hall


Yes he is in the Hall. That doesn't make him a good shooter.

Bob Cousy shot 37.5% from the field for his career and he is in the Hall.

Last edited by tontoz : 10-19-2019 at 12:29 PM.
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Old 10-19-2019, 12:30 PM   #71
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Default Re: PJax was right: Abdul-Rauf like Curry

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Originally Posted by tontoz
I have plenty of discussions that don't involve shooting. However TS is the primary factor that determines which team wins the game. If Team A has a higher TS than Team B, the only way for Team B to with the game is the get more possessions (more rebounds, fewer turnovers and fouls).

Some people fall back on the eye test when the facts don't match their opinions. The scoreboard doesn't care what a player looks like when he shoots. It only cares whether or not the ball goes in.


youre ignoring timing and context in your end all be all reliance on %'s.

kblaze right explanation of dynamics is more important than these stiff, overly literal, autistic takes.
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Old 10-19-2019, 12:31 PM   #72
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Default Re: PJax was right: Abdul-Rauf like Curry

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Originally Posted by warriorfan
Lamar Odom is like Magic Johnson

Tyrus Thomas is like Bill Russell


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Old 10-19-2019, 12:32 PM   #73
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Default Re: PJax was right: Abdul-Rauf like Curry

For the record Chris Mullin made over 800 3s in his career shooting 38.4%
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Old 10-19-2019, 12:36 PM   #74
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Default Re: PJax was right: Abdul-Rauf like Curry

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Originally Posted by tpols
youre ignoring timing and context in your end all be all reliance on %'s.

kblaze right explanation of dynamics is more important than these stiff, overly literal, autistic takes.


Context? What context? There was less emphasis on 3s back in the 80s and 90s but there were still plenty of guys shooting them well.

Stephs father Dell was a career 40% shooter from 3, taking almost 5 3s per 36 minutes, and he is older than Rauf.

Do you think the scoreboard cares about "dynamics"?
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