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Old 08-19-2018, 04:33 PM   #1
3ball
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Default Has anyone ever had enough skill to average 10+ apg without playing PG?




MJ didn't start at point guard. He didn't bring the ball up on most possessions or run a bunch of high screen rolls as the ball-handler.

But he still averaged 11 dimes because he's a vastly underrated passer - the only player ever to average 10+ assists without starting at PG
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Old 08-19-2018, 05:10 PM   #2
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Default Re: Has anyone ever had enough skill to average 10+ apg without playing PG?

Bran isn't even the best scorer + passer combination of THIS era let alone all time.

King James Harden holds the honor for best scorer + passer combination of this era
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Old 08-19-2018, 05:16 PM   #3
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Default Re: Has anyone ever had enough skill to average 10+ apg without playing PG?

Hm, dont see that he did?

I assume you are talking about averaging that over a span of games?
But even that doesnt make sense because you would know Lebron and Magic averaged that and more and during even bigger spans not playing pg.... ofcourse they played like pgs really "point-forward" thing but technically they didnt play PG and hence technically the answer to your question is Magic / Lebron...

PS: talking about 80-84 Magic, he didnt touch the PG position for a single game during his 1st 4 years, Nixon was the starting PG and Magic started-played SG/SF many people dont know that for some reason..... he actually averaged 10.5 apg for an entire season playing sg/sf...

Last edited by pauk : 08-19-2018 at 05:20 PM.
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Old 08-19-2018, 05:20 PM   #4
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Default Re: Has anyone ever had enough skill to average 10+ apg without playing PG?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pauk
Hm, dont see that he did?

I assume you are talking about averaging that over a span of games?
But even that doesnt make sense because you would know Lebron and Magic averaged that and more and during even bigger spans not playing pg.... ofcourse they played like pgs really "point-forward" thing but technically they didnt play PG and hence technically the answer to your question is Magic / Lebron...

PS: talking about 80-84 Magic, he didnt touch the PG position for a single game during his 1st 4 years, Nixon was the starting PG and Magic started-played SF/SG, many people dont know that for some reason.
he's talking about the 91 finals


not sure why he's bringing up finals stats when LeBron averages 10 boards and 8 assists in the finals (as a non PG), jordan only 6/6 (ironic)
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Old 08-19-2018, 05:20 PM   #5
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Default Re: Has anyone ever had enough skill to average 10+ apg without playing PG?

Quote:
Originally Posted by superduper
Bran isn't even the best scorer + passer combination of THIS era let alone all time.

King James Harden holds the honor for best scorer + passer combination of this era
Especially in the playoffs
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Old 08-19-2018, 05:25 PM   #6
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Default Re: Has anyone ever had enough skill to average 10+ apg without playing PG?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KiiiiNG
he's talking about the 91 finals


not sure why he's bringing up finals stats when LeBron averages 10 boards and 8 assists in the finals (as a non PG), jordan only 6/6 (ironic)

Oh... even then im pretty sure Magic at least averaged 10 apg during some Finals between 80-84? Again, remember, 80-84 Magic was 100% sg/sf.... heck i think he even started Center more than PG during 80-84 lol
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Old 08-19-2018, 05:26 PM   #7
Gus Hemmingway
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Default Re: Has anyone ever had enough skill to average 10+ apg without playing PG?

lol, isnt that the season his team won like 40 games and got swept in the 1st round?

Seems like empty stats to me
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Old 08-19-2018, 05:48 PM   #8
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Default Re: Has anyone ever had enough skill to average 10+ apg without playing PG?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KiiiiNG
he's talking about the 91 finals


not sure why he's bringing up finals stats when LeBron averages 10 boards and 8 assists in the finals (as a non PG), jordan only 6/6 (ironic)
Lebron plays PG

he's literally plays PG more than anyone in history, as his time of possessions tops 12 minutes in the Finals, or 50% higher than the regular season leader

His record time of possession means he brings the ball up more often, runs high screens as the ball handler more often than anyone evet
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Old 08-19-2018, 05:49 PM   #9
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Default Re: Has anyone ever had enough skill to average 10+ apg without playing PG?

op, imagine doing that for nearly your entire career. Lebron
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Old 08-19-2018, 06:00 PM   #10
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Default Re: Has anyone ever had enough skill to average 10+ apg without playing PG?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ball
Lebron plays PG

he's literally plays PG more than anyone in history, as his time of possessions tops 12 minutes in the Finals, or 50% higher than the regular season leader

His record time of possession means he brings the ball up more often, runs high screens as the ball handler more often than anyone evet

So i guess thats your take on 80-84 Magic aswell?
Yea well, guess that suita your agenda.
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Old 08-19-2018, 06:28 PM   #11
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Default Re: Has anyone ever had enough skill to average 10+ apg without playing PG?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ball
Lebron plays PG

he's literally plays PG more than anyone in history, as his time of possessions tops 12 minutes in the Finals, or 50% higher than the regular season leader

His record time of possession means he brings the ball up more often, runs high screens as the ball handler more often than anyone evet
MJ averaging 11 assists was an anomaly, he never approached double-digit assists ever again in the finals

his average is half that


The time of possession in Bron's favor proves LeBron is the more skilled offensive player


The reason he has high time of possession is because of his elite ball-handling, passing, and decision making abilities


Jordan could never run a sophisticated offense, his team was .500 when he tried in 89 (and stat-padded his way to meaningless triple doubles in an attempt to win MVP)

Pippen was deemed the smarter, more capable ball handler and passer (LeBron is MJ and Magic combined... so he handles the ball more)

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Old 08-19-2018, 09:55 PM   #12
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Default Re: Has anyone ever had enough skill to average 10+ apg without playing PG?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KiiiiNG
MJ averaging 11 assists was an anomaly, he never approached double-digit assists ever again in the finals

his average is half that


The time of possession in Bron's favor proves LeBron is the more skilled offensive player


The reason he has high time of possession is because of his elite ball-handling, passing, and decision making abilities


Jordan could never run a sophisticated offense, his team was .500 when he tried in 89 (and stat-padded his way to meaningless triple doubles in an attempt to win MVP)

Pippen was deemed the smarter, more capable ball handler and passer (LeBron is MJ and Magic combined... so he handles the ball more)



this is so dumb. Pippen had to develop into that role to let Jordan take care of the more important business....scoring and bringing home the chip. We all knew Jordan could excel at that role but that wasnít winning championships. Scoring is. Keep telling yourself that scoring isnít the most important aspect of basketball and that assists and rebounds would even out the impact; it doesnít. MJ>>>Bron.
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Old 08-19-2018, 10:34 PM   #13
Gus Hemmingway
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Default Re: Has anyone ever had enough skill to average 10+ apg without playing PG?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CAstill
this is so dumb. Pippen had to develop into that role to let Jordan take care of the more important business....scoring and bringing home the chip. We all knew Jordan could excel at that role but that wasnít winning championships. Scoring is. Keep telling yourself that scoring isnít the most important aspect of basketball and that assists and rebounds would even out the impact; it doesnít. MJ>>>Bron.

Then why did the Bulls lose MJ's 30ppg in 1994 and only lost 2 more games?


I thought scoring is the most important aspect? Why didnt the Bulls fall off?


Why did the Cavs/Heat fall off a cliff without LeBrons 8 rebounds and 8 assists?




Seems like LeBrons 8 rebounds and 8 assists are more valuable than MJ's 30 ppg
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Old 08-19-2018, 10:50 PM   #14
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Default Re: Has anyone ever had enough skill to average 10+ apg without playing PG?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KiiiiNG

MJ averaging 11 assists was an anomaly, he never approached double-digit assists ever again in the finals

his average is half that

Anomalies are your entire argument, i.e. 73-win team

And of course MJ's assists were less overall because he didn't play PG

But he proved he was capable of averaging that without playing PG, which is the point t of the thread - no one else was ever skilled enough to do that - only the goat averaged 10 apg without playing pg


Quote:
Originally Posted by KiiiiNG

The time of possession in Bron's favor proves LeBron is the more skilled offensive player

PG's by definition are one-dimensional - they score and playmake primarily via live dribble, which also means they take longer to score than any other position
Time of Possession

Durant 17' Finals - 3.8 minutes
Durant 18' Finals - 4.8 minutes

Lebron 17' Finals - 8.2 minutes
Lebron 18' Finals - 11.5 minutes

Now don't tell me lebron is the better scorer


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiiing

The reason he has high time of possession is because of his elite ball-handling, passing, and decision making abilities

Usurp PG from f POS ... Bird passing Durant scoring

Anyone with over 6 minutes time of possession is a point guard that brings the ball up the floor and uses mostly live dribbles to score and playmake.. Someone with 7-8 minutes is a top 10 leader in time of possession (westbrook, wall, lillard.. lebron).. these players are mostly one-dimensional scorers (live dribble) and therefore less skilled at scoring overall and more predictable.. I'm not saying lebeon can't post, come off screens, or slash off-ball, but he isn't elite at any of it and barely does it - he's a mostly live-dribbling pg

And what lebron does is start at forward, and then go to the backcourt and usurp the actual starting PG's duties.. lebron brings the ball up the floor and runs most of the high-screens as the ball-handler, while the actual PG takes a lesser role, or partially off-ball role

Lebron's abnormally-high time of possession for a forward gives teammates less time with the ball then they get on other teams where the forward has a normal time of possession - the reality is that curry simply had more time with the ball alongside Durant's 3 minutes time of possession than he'd have alongside lebron's 7... More importantly, draymond gets his need time next to Durant that he'd never get with lebron.. lebron would destroy Draymond as if he never existed


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiiing

Jordan could never run a sophisticated offense, his team was .500 when he tried in 89 (and stat-padded his way to meaningless triple doubles in an attempt to win MVP)

Jordan's offenses were much better than lebron's, with higher usage

So he literally was a bigger part of better offenses

And in 1989, his 24-game stretch at PG was against 45-win teams on average, while his team was a 47-win team.. don't get me started on how mj's 33/8/8 yielded only 47 wins, while lebron was winning 60+ with far lesser stats due to a far more decorated CAST


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiiing

Pippen was deemed the smarter, more capable ball handler and passer (LeBron is MJ and Magic combined... so he handles the ball more)

Laughable

Pippen's handle was good but he wasn't a guy that broke his man down off-the-dribble with moves and counters, while MJ was

That's why MJ led the bulls in assists most playoff runs and literally assisted on the most bulls field goals for both 3-peats:
Assist Percentage 1991-1993 Playoffs:

Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...yoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...yoffs_advanced


Assist Percentage 1996-1998 Playoffs:

Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...yoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...yoffs_advanced

In addition to leading his team in passing, MJ carried the goat scoring load, literally 4 ppg more than any player in playoff history. And the best defender ever at his position and possibly on the perimeter
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Old 08-19-2018, 10:51 PM   #15
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Default Re: Has anyone ever had enough skill to average 10+ apg without playing PG?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gus Hemmingway
Then why did the Bulls lose MJ's 30ppg in 1994 and only lost 2 more games?


I thought scoring is the most important aspect? Why didnt the Bulls fall off?


Why did the Cavs/Heat fall off a cliff without LeBrons 8 rebounds and 8 assists?




Seems like LeBrons 8 rebounds and 8 assists are more valuable than MJ's 30 ppg


What the hell are you talking about? 1994 bulls lost a ton more games, they went from a 3peat championship team to a second round semi conference finals loser

Of course a Lebron fan would just look at regular season accumulation stats and go...uh dur they only lost 2 more games without Jordan dur! Idiots lol.
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