When talking about scorers how do you account for how much a guy shoots?

[Marchesk]

There is an important difference between Dominique being the focal point of the Hawks offense, and Worthy having Magic create opportunities for him. Trade places for a season and let's see what Worthy's efficiency would look like versus Nique's.

Same goes for Harden. He's had to carry the offensive load. Every single team game plans for Harden, and yet he's still putting up these huge scoring games. Does his efficiency suffer as a result? Sure, although 61 TS% is pretty good for volume scoring. It's 10th all-time for 30 point scorers, and the best for 33+

[Kblaze8855]

There is an important difference between Dominique being the focal point of the Hawks offense, and Worthy having Magic create opportunities for him. Trade places for a season and let's see what Worthy's efficiency would look like versus Nique's.

I feel thats a bit overblown. Not that Magic didnt get the ball to worthy....but they all played off eachother.

The thing Magic did that most other points wouldnt was the crazy bullet passes out of nowhere....but theres a reason he threw them to Worthy and not so much to Rambis or AC Green. Worthy would catch it.

But Magic was pretty equal opportunity otherwise. By the late 80s Magic played off worthy as much as the opposite. Hed get posted up draw doubles and kick out to Magic for the 3 all the time. He would get doubled more than Kareem by then.

I dont know if someone passing you the ball for a quick one on one move to score means they are the reason you scored. James was mostly getting posted up or facing up by then and when they ran hed get it as often from Cooper or Scott as Magic...and hed lead the break himself at times. But peak worthy was a halfcourt scorer who was also an elite runner...not a runner who helped out a little when it slowed down which feels like his reputation.

Sure his percentages dip on a worse team. Nobody doubs that. He wouldnt be shooting 13-15 times.....but depending on his role he could be as effective.


JameS worthy didnt go #1 overall because people felt he could run. They knew Nique could run too. Worthy was a respected total player. The whole NBA knew the Lakers had a straight up franchise player off the bench:

So hang in there, James. That you could be one of the best players to come into the NBA in the last decade and still finish third in the rookie voting isn't as preposterous as it sounds. "When you're talking strictly about Rookie of the Year," says Indiana Coach Jack McKinney, "potential shouldn't count. It should be based on production and the impact a player makes on his team. But if you are talking about potential, Worthy could be the league MVP some day. Let me put it this way. If I had to choose one player to build a team around from among those three, I'd be happy to have third pick."

They knew they limited him:

Riley feels that Worthy, who's 6'9", 219 pounds, is the best rookie in the league this year, whether he wins any awards or not. "One of the questions you have to ask yourself is, 'Can Terry Cummings play guard?' We know James can play big forward and small forward, and he can play big guard if we want to go with a power lineup and make it difficult for people to match up against us. I think he might be one of the most creative offensive players in the NBA. We inhibit him quite a bit."

By the time his career was winding down he was established as what he was. He never developed fully into an every play attacker like Nique did.

It got him rings...but it cost him respect too. Double edged sword.

[game3524]

I remember way back in the day my friend was a HUGE Allen Iverson and Steve Francis fan but when we'd look at the box score AI would drop his 30 but it would take him damn near 30 shots as well.

Was he efficient? Hell no
Was he the teams best scorer? Yes
But...
Could there have been a more balanced, efficient measure of attack? I think so

Not on those teams.

[Stephonit]

Shot creation is a skill that gets underrated by fans. It is even worse now in the analytic era.

I have heard people say that Steph could do what Harden is currently doing and I am not sure about that. Steph is a good shot creator in his own right, but I don't think he is at Harden's level in that department. The only guys I think who are on James is level in that regard in recent memory are Kobe and AI.

I thought of commenting on this previously but decided to pass. Given certain other opinions expressed, however, I've decided to revisit it.

There is no reason to doubt Steph could produce the results Harden is producing. Multiple 60 points games are doable for him. He has sat out many 4th quarters after having already scored 40+ points. Steph wouldn't do it the way Harden is doing so though, Steph would accomplish it with superior efficiency. It's the easier way to do it if you can do it

[SpaceJam2]

[QUOTE=Stephonit]I thought of commenting on this previously but decided to pass. Given certain other opinions expressed, however, I've decided to revisit it.

There is no reason to doubt Steph could produce the results Harden is producing. Multiple 60 points games are doable for him. He has sat out many 4th quarters after having already scored 40+ points. Steph wouldn't do it the way Harden is doing so though, Steph would accomplish it with superior efficiency. It's the easier way to do it if you can do it

[game3524]

[QUOTE=Stephonit]I thought of commenting on this previously but decided to pass. Given certain other opinions expressed, however, I've decided to revisit it.

There is no reason to doubt Steph could produce the results Harden is producing. Multiple 60 points games are doable for him. He has sat out many 4th quarters after having already scored 40+ points. Steph wouldn't do it the way Harden is doing so though, Steph would accomplish it with superior efficiency. It's the easier way to do it if you can do it

[SpaceJam2]

Steph couldn't do what Harden is is doing for an entire year. A month, sure. But not for a whole season.

One reason GS went after Durant is due to the fact that Steph isn't a great isolation scorer/shot creator. It was one of the main reasons GS lost against Cleveland. When Cleveland figured out how to defend them, Steph couldn't get shots off.

Sure, as I just mentioned this above: When you throw a hard-double at Steph it puts considerably more pressure on him than say, Harden. Is this because Harden is stronger/bigger or a better passer? I don't know, but Curry has always been visibly affected by defenses set out to shut him down whereas Harden has been finding a way to fight through it all.

[Stephonit]

When you throw a hard-double at Steph it puts considerably more pressure on him than say, Harden. Is this because Harden is stronger/bigger or a better passer? I don't know, but Curry has always been visibly affected by defenses set out to shut him down whereas Harden has been finding a way to fight through it all.

Does it really put more pressure on Steph than the others? What I see is he is more willing to pass the ball

[3ball]

There is an important difference between Dominique being the focal point of the Hawks offense, and Worthy having Magic create opportunities for him. Trade places for a season and let's see what Worthy's efficiency would look like versus Nique's.

Same goes for Harden. He's had to carry the offensive load. Every single team game plans for Harden, and yet he's still putting up these huge scoring games. Does his efficiency suffer as a result? Sure, although 61 TS% is pretty good for volume scoring. It's 10th all-time for 30 point scorers, and the best for 33+

You're right - Harden has the best true shooting for anyone over 33 ppg (harden 61% > 60% for mj in 88')

But he doesn't have the best offensive efficiency (efficiency per possession), which shooting efficiency falls under

88' MJ had the highest offensive efficiency for all 30+, 33+, or 35+ scorers with a crazy 123 ORtg and 31.7 Player Efficiency Rating

No one is close to this.. .. (harden is at 118 ortg and 30.5 PER)

The culprit is turnovers - MJ averaged the least turnovers of any high scorer and only 3.1 in 88', versus 5.1 for harden this yea.
.

[egokiller]

You want to talk about efficiency while shooting?

Why hasn't anyone been able to score 40+ in a finals game on 71% shooting as a 2nd option playing in a cancerous system while the 1st option has 40+ himself? Hell, let's omit the fact that he did this in a cancerous bron ball offense. Find me someone that did it in a system as a 2nd option that didn't have to deal with cancerous LeBron ball. We can even omit that he hit one of the clutchest shots in finals history just 2 games later.

I'm not implying that Kyrie can just go off anytime he wants in a finals game and repeat that performance, I'm asking who had it firing on all cylinders as a 2nd option the way Kryie did and said "fvck it, I'm already having to play in this shit cancer offense, I might as well go all out and see what happens while letting the primary guy score just as much, only on less efficiency"

Kyrie basically decided that's how it was going to be and no one could fvcking do anything about it.

[game3524]

Perhaps Steph cannot do what Harden is doing orchestrating everything as a focal point as long as Harden but can Harden do what Steph does causing off ball chaos running all over the court? In years past Steph led the league in distance traveled on the court. Steph orchestrates the offense differently but it is foolish to say it isn't as if not even more effective.

What exactly did the Cavaliers figure out? They were able to hamper Steph's productivity so that it fell from all-time greatest efficiency to simply great efficiency. Steph remains the player with the 12th highest average ppg for a career in finals games. The year the Cavaliers won, Steph was coming off of injury and the Warriors still had a shot at winning if Harrison Barnes could shoot at an average rate on the open shots he was getting as part of the Warriors scheme to take advantage of the attention being paid to Steph.

Indeed that Steph is trapped and doubled by default can be interpreted as a concession to him that other stars aren't afforded because it is believed it is better to let them beat you than their open teammates. The Warriors and Spurs guarded LeBron one-on-one. The Rockets were okay with KD going iso. Is Curry doubled because he is more susceptible to harassment or is it because he is simply too dangerous to leave with any room?

There is no evidence that Harden does better or is less susceptible in playoffs conditions.

The Rockets weren't "content" on letting Durant go ISO. That is generally how you play against defenses that switch all the time. Durant is 7 feet tall and is going to have a matchup advantage on anyone who guards him.

Anyway, I am not even arguing whether Harden is better then Curry (he isn't). I just don't think he capable of doing what Harden has done for the last several months. He just doesn't create shots to that level or can draw fouls at that rate.