Is Jimmy Butler better than D. Rose ever was?

[TripleA]

Are you implying that Dairy Crows deserved the MVP award? I hope that's not what you're implying.

No I'm not I'm just saying he has to be good enough to get to that point.

[warriorfan]

MVP Derrick Rose was the real deal. He would take over games constantly. I doubted Rose for awhile but after the playoffs he had in his MVP season I was convinced he was legit.

He was a great player especially considering he was only 22 at the time, he had room to improve. It seriously sucks badly that he got injured.

[Fire Colangelo]

Why are people giving Rose all the credit for the success of those Bulls teams? They were defensive juggernauts that held opponents well below their scoring averages. Rose wasn't shooting at an amazing level or anything like Curry and threw up plenty of bricks that needed to be rebounded.

Now if you want to argue that Rose's play-making is the difference maker and conclude that his greater offensive impact (due to higher play-making) outweighs Butler's greater defensive impact/2-way play, then that is a fair argument.

But to sit there and act like Rose was this efficient scorer that carried an otherwise mediocre Bulls team to 60+ wins is borderline ludicrous. It's akin to claiming that those LeBron-lead Cavs teams were garbage outside of LeBron when they both had in common being teams tailor-made to compliment their superstars at the time with great defense.

Nobody said Rose was efficient.... he's far from efficient. But he's always attacking, he's always putting pressure on the defense, which opens up a ton of offensive options for the Bulls. Rose was someone that could get to the paint at will, that's something Jimmy Butler will never get you.

It's not about scoring 25 PPG, a LOT of people could score 25 PPG given the green light. It's about setting the pace, constantly putting pressure on the defense while being insanely clutch.

Kind of like how KG and Dirk scores similar amount of points on similar FG% but Dirk can carry an offense much better than KG. In fact, the gap offensively between the two is bigger than the gap defensively IMO.

The fact that Rose was able to carry a respectable Bulls offense with guys like Keith Bogans and Ronnie Brewer starting is a feat itself IMO. Bulls offense dropped to 5th last and 2nd last the years after Rose got injured (the Bulls had the 11th and 5th best offense in 2011 and 2012) while losing to the Sixers.

[Graviton]

Butler right now has a better roster than Rose had in 2011 and he is putting up worse numbers and has a lower team record.

Carlos ****ing Boozer and Keith ****ing Bogans were starting players on that Bulls roster.

[ISHGoat]

Butler right now has a better roster than Rose had in 2011 and he is putting up worse numbers and has a lower team record.

Carlos ****ing Boozer and Keith ****ing Bogans were starting players on that Bulls roster.

Are we revising history to pretend that Carlos Boozer was some kind of scrub?

Boozer was just coming off a 20/11/3 on 56% 60% TS season.

Keith Bogans was a scrub, I'll give you that. Don't put Boozer in the same sentence as Bogans.

[Graviton]

Are we revising history to pretend that Carlos Boozer was some kind of scrub?

Boozer was just coming off a 20/11/3 on 56% 60% TS season.

Keith Bogans was a scrub, I'll give you that. Don't put Boozer in the same sentence as Bogans.

You obviously didn't watch those games, Boozer was the Enes Kanter of that era. Nobody gives a shit about those stats when he gives up open lanes to the basket 24/7 and got benched by Thibs in 4th quarters for Gibson due to his garbage defense.

[Pointguard]

Are we revising history to pretend that Carlos Boozer was some kind of scrub?

Boozer was just coming off a 20/11/3 on 56% 60% TS season.

Keith Bogans was a scrub, I'll give you that. Don't put Boozer in the same sentence as Bogans.

Boozer was getting benched in the fourth of the ECF. He didn't know the plays, yeah, all three of them.

[raprap]

Jimmy is a two way player so I put him in a high regard. Healthy rose was a beast tho.

[Pointguard]

Kind of like how KG and Dirk scores similar amount of points on similar FG% but Dirk can carry an offense much better than KG. In fact, the gap offensively between the two is bigger than the gap defensively IMO.

KG, a top five defensive player ever, ran one of the best defenses ever without known defensive pieces while being the main offensive player in getting a chip. The equivalent would be Dirk running one of the best offenses ever and being the main defensive player. The second half of the equation eliminates any possibility of a ring.

[Legends66NBA7]

That's your imagination and yours alone, and you acting like the resistance is strong. It's you dude. And I know its cool to make it sound like you got friends...

You alright ?

[Fire Colangelo]

KG, a top five defensive player ever, ran one of the best defenses ever without known defensive pieces while being the main offensive player in getting a chip. The equivalent would be Dirk running one of the best offenses ever and being the main defensive player. The second half of the equation eliminates any possibility of a ring.

KG did not run the Celtics offense... not even close. Even with 3 HOF players including KG himself, the 08 Celtics ran an above average offense.

Btw, that Celtics team had guys like Perkins, Tony Allen, Posey and Thibs. Far from a team without defensive pieces.

Dirk on the other hand is capable of leading mediocre casts to a top 5 offense in his sleep. Not to mention he's able to play within a top defense as well.

[Pointguard]

You alright ?

If you did the full quote, you wouldn't be lost. Why chop up the quote and then act confused? You're being silly.

KG did not run the Celtics offense... not even close. Even with 3 HOF players including KG himself, the 08 Celtics ran an above average offense.

They ran the offense thru KG. And he was their top scorer throughout the playoffs.

Btw, that Celtics team had guys like Perkins, Tony Allen, Posey and Thibs. Far from a team without defensive pieces.

Thibs doesn't play. Neither did Tony Allen - at least not five minutes per game. So you are basically only talking about Perkins who played solid one on one defense but the league didn't have more than two scoring centers. Posey did help but was coming off of the bench.

Dirk on the other hand is capable of leading mediocre casts to a top 5 offense in his sleep. Not to mention he's able to play within a top defense as well.

That's not what we are talking about. Dirk absolutely can't be the best defensive player on a winning team.

KG lead a top five offensive team. A team that he lead them in nearly every category all the way thru the WCF and where he nearly played every position. So you are saying that Dirk could take a team where he is the best defensive player to the conference finals? Do you really believe the stuff you say.

[The_Pharcyde]

Are we revising history to pretend that Carlos Boozer was some kind of scrub?

Boozer was just coming off a 20/11/3 on 56% 60% TS season.

Keith Bogans was a scrub, I'll give you that. Don't put Boozer in the same sentence as Bogans.

bogans was way inferior to boozer offensively you are right

but boozer came in fat and out of shape.. and thats after missing the beginning of the year because he "tripped over a bag"

he was supposed to be the 2nd option but he wasnt that guy once he left the jazz, he got paid and fell in love with the mid range jumper after jabstepping the whole shot clock

the bulls had to fill the 2nd option by committee
it was always rose and whoever stepped up that night.. sometimes booz, sometimes deng, maybe even korver at times

but it all ran through rose... he was the main pipeline to everything the bulls did offensively, the other players were contingent on rose


thibs defense did boost them forsure, he revolutionized the game.. but i have never seen any defensive scheme ever put the ball in the hoop

the bulls were solid once rose went down, but if you watched the games it was obvious it was all on heart and they didnt have the talent but they made up for it with will

2011 mvp rose was insane and that work load he had to carry eventually broke him during the lockout season, because it was the same burden on his back but 66 games in a way condensed time frame

the body is a chain and rose began getting nicked up and it eventually was a chain reaction into him popping his ACL

Butler is great and definitely worthy of being an all star starter this year but Rose was something more special than JB right now

[Black and White]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzfaLHm2bW0

How quickly they forget

[DMAVS41]

No