ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #12. Dirk Nowitzki vs John Havlicek.

[Kblaze8855]

10 time all star
2007 NBa MVP
2011 NBA finals MVP
11 time all NBA(4 first 5 second)
Top 5 in scoring 2005 and 2009
Top 3 in FTs made in 2005 and 2010
Career 23/8/3 player with individual season highs of 26 points, 10 rebounds, and 3.5 assists.
Top 3 in MVP voting in 2006 and 2005.


What they were saying....

I hesitated to use this one because its from his own coach but...a lot of these are from friends, coaches and tammates so...whatever.

"In my opinion, he's a top 10 player in NBA history because of the uniqueness of his game and how he's carried this franchise on his back for over a decade,"

Im sure many were shocked to hear it even from his own coach but....its arguable that people who have been ranked top 10 didnt actually accomplish anything he didnt. In fact its more than arguable. Its a fact. I suspect hes a guy who once hes gone for a while ranking himway way up will be more common as thoughts of his faults are less vivid. top 10 all time? Perhaps not. But hes gonna creep up as everyone does towards the end.






John Havlicek

13 time NBA all star
8 time NBA champion
1974 finals MVP(award did not exist for 5 of his rings)
11 time all NBA(4 first 6 second)
8 time all defensive team(5 first 3 second)
Top 5 in MVP voting in two seasons
Top 5 in assists twice
Top 5 in ppg twice
Career 20/5/6 player with single season highs of 29/9/8


As for what they were saying...

I almost have to many option. The more I look into it he might have been the most loved player in the NBA in his prime. Examples:


newspaper headling in 1973:

Two headlines you'll probably never read: "Pope Elopes" or "Hawlicek Chokes."

Jerry West told Sports Illustrated, "The guy is the ambassador of our sport. John always gave his very best every night and had time for everybody-teammates, fans, the press." Cowens added, "You tell me how many class guys there are like him anywhere. They ought to retire his number from the whole NBA. Just take 17 and stash it up there in lights."

"He epitomizes everything good," said Celtics general manager Red Auerbach in The New York Times. "If I had a son like John I'd be the happiest man in the world."

"On stamina alone, he'd be among the top players who ever played the game," longtime New York Knicks coach Red Holzman once said of John "Hondo" Havlicek. "It would've been fair to those who had to play him or those who had to coach against him if he had been blessed only with his inhuman endurance. God had to compound it by making him a good scorer, smart ballhandler and intelligent defensive player with quickness of mind, hands and feet."

And in 1978 the Boston Glob polled the Celtics fanbase and he was voted the greatest Celtic ever over Russell and Cousy.

I used to wonder how someone so loved and highly regarded faded in the minds of fans to the point most dont know anything but what team he played for....

I have some thoughts on that which ill post shortly.

[Fazotronic]

lol. does anyone think Havlicek would get 5 all defensive first teams today?

[Gotterdammerung]

Havlicek in a landslide.

More later.

[Kblaze8855]

For all his greatness hes probably the most overshadowed player of his level ever. I dont feel like rewording it all for the same information so ill just find something I said before:

He put up straight superstar numbersi n the playoffs from the mid 60s to the mid 70s. He wasnt on some roleplayer shit most of the time. For the last 3 title runs with Russell around he put up 24/9/4, 26/9/8, and 25/10/6.

He could realistically be like a 15 time all star. He was putting up 20/5 in his second season and wasnt an all star...but he made it putting up 19/6 years later. If they had the loose definition of assists we use back then he might well have been a 29/11/9 player.

He had rings as a high scoring 6th man, rings as his teams leading scorer(though not best player), and rings when Russell was gone. He just has the bad(well...depending on how you look at it) luck of being teamed with someone to overshadow him all the time.

He won it all in college...on a team with Jerry Lucas. Guy forgotten today but he was considered one of the best players in the world for some time. Top 50 all time. All that. And a bigman...bigmen get the credit.

He then went to the NBA to be outshined by Russell.

Russell left and they draft Cowens. Another bigman to get the love. Didnt hurt that cowens was a legit superstar....plus loved because of his style of play.

John was born to be the winner in the background.

Id say he should have stuck with football where he could have gotten attention relative to his accomplishments.....but he was drafted to Cleveland. Where he of course would have been outshined by...Jim Brown.

Yes...John Havlicek was drafted by the NFL.

He put up 28 a game in the 69 finals. 27 a game in the 68 finals with 40/10/7 to close it out. He was one minute short of the NBA record for minutes in a 6 game series. He put up 26/8/5 in the 74 finals.

If they just handed finals MVP to the guy with the most points on the winning team like they do these days he would have 3 or 4 finals MVPs. With 8 rings?

Career accomplishments wise hes pretty much two elite careers in one.

He never won an mvp but he put up 28/9/8 on a 56 win team and 24/7/7 on a 68 win team. So he no doubt had MVP quality years.

On every level..in every sport...there was someone to take credit. ut he always did his thing. he always held his own.

What is there to say he didnt do?

8 rings. Rings in every role. 6th man...superstar sidekick...MVP level team leader who was leaned on to close games.

He put up Lebron/Bird numbers.

He was one of the best defensive players in the NBA.

You can go on youtube to the 70s finals and watch him ball his ass off throwing floaters to the heavens over Kareem, making big plays on both ends, leading offenses, and guarding stars well.

What more was there for him to do to prove his greatness?

He did it all...and did it so consistently and working so hard Harvard actually did studies on his heart rate because he was seen as having the most stamina in the major sports.

Hes no doubt gonna have a lot of people in this topic including the word "But..." and finding something to nitpick after admitting that he pretty much had 3 careers worth of HOF accomplishments in one....but I dont know that I can.

Its arguable either way to me. I dont care much who wins this one. But im nto looking forward to the sweeping under the rug I suspect Hondo is about to get in here.

[PTB Fan]

John Havlicek and it's not even close. More accomplished player, better defender, all-around player, was much better leader, had a better peak and so on.

Dirk can be argued as better shooter and possibly offensive player, but John was a capable scorer (26 000+ points), so much better playmaker and productive offensive force (top 10 in both scoring and passing for 4-5 years in his career) etc.

Give me Hondo and i don't even need to take look back. He's in the 10-15 range on the all time list IMO. Such a great player. His only issue is that he didn't win a MVP (even with 29/9/8, thanks to Kareem he didn't) which is his only issue.

He always elevated his game in the clutch too. And i don't think Dirk should have got past Baylor. Nowitzki is in the 20-25 range on the all time list. Hondo by far.

[Kblaze8855]

lol. does anyone think Havlicek would get 5 all defensive first teams today?

Any reason he couldnt be an all D type?

Less athletic players than he was are considered for it.

Defense is more about desire, effort, intelligence and and preparation than anything physical....and he was a solid to very good athlete anyway.

I dont think Bowen was any more athletic.

Im thinking Hondo is someone who people will make assumptions about because of the color of his skin. I try not to do that.

[PTB Fan]

He was one of the best defensive players in the NBA.

I personally feel John's defense is extremely underrated. He's arguably a top 20 defender of all time and one of the 10 finest ever on the perimeter. He was such a great player on those passing lanes and could lock his opponent with ease.

Elgin gave him trouble from time to time, but who he didn't gave problems? And probably West too. Otherwise, Havlicek was a remarkable defender. He had 5x All-First Defensive Teams. Had they recorded them earlier, he'd have finished with like 7-10 of them.

[PTB Fan]

lol. does anyone think Havlicek would get 5 all defensive first teams today?

Bobby Jones had similar physical gifts (expect minus the stamina) and finished in 10 All-First Defensive Teams (counting 2 All-First selections from ABA too) and only one All-Second selection too.

I think Hondo would have been a brilliant defender now.

[Brunch@Five]

I'd probably take Havlicek due to the reasons kblaze stated.

As for his stats:
his peak numbers are inflated (relative to most other seasons) by playing up to 45 minutes per game. Per 36, his numbers barely changed over the course of his career. As for his efficiency: shooting clearly is worse than Nowitzki, and even in his last year, playing the least minutes, he averaged more TOs than Nowitzki ever has outside his rookie season.

[WillC]

John Havlicek, definitely.

He was a winner, a tremendous defender, he had an incredible mid-range game, his game fit into the team style of play but he could take over if necessary.

[Harison]

Hondo

[Kblaze8855]

Of course hondos numbers went up with his minutes. his ability t oplay the whole game and still finish strong was probably his most famous trait.

Id say being able t play a high level on both ends virtually all game is impressive as hell. He played 47 minutes a game in his 6th title run then another 47 a game in 72.

[greensborohill]

Dirk

Where is the list so far?

[Kblaze8855]

Just a moment.

[Kblaze8855]

26. Webber
25. Dantley
24. King
23. Cunningham
22. Worthy
21. Jerry Lucas
20.Paul Pierce
19.Dolph Schayes
18.Paul Arizin
17.Dennis Rodman
16.Dominique Wilkins
15. Elvin Hayes
14. Kevin Mchale
13. Pippen
12. Baylor



I keep messing up the number in the first posts because I was thrown off on like #16 and the list I work off of on my desktop is off because of it. This is the vote for #11 not 12.