Who Were Jordan's Greatest Rivals?

[Calabis]

Except the overzealous Kobe fans aren't the only people that dispute that Jordan is the GOAT.

To some people Jordan being the GOAT is an undisputed scientific fact rather than just an opinion and whenever someone disagrees with the notion that he is the clear GOAT by far and away some MJ fans act like you committed blasphemy.

LMAO, even Jordan doesn't call himself the GOAT, but most of his peers, media and basketball fans in general give him that distinction. I find the Kobestans (like yourself) funny as hell......you'll sit here posting former players or current players who call Kobe "the best right now" and use that as a declaration of truth when fans of Wade/Lebron disagree, yet when people use those same things to validate Jordan...its hogwash, media propaganda, homerism.....GTFOH!!!!

And yes its only the KObestans, who are trying to elevate their hero.....at least the other guys metioned Wilt and Kareem are worth the arguement

[GiveItToBurrito]

I don't want to hijack G.O.A.T.'s Russell thread, but an interesting point was raised about some of the greatest athletes having to test themselves against formidable rivals.

Here's his statement.



Now, this raises two questions.


1: Do you believe that an athlete must validate himself through beating an elite rival to achieve G.O.A.T. recognition, or at least be in the discussion?

2: Who did Jordan compete against (and beat) that fits that bill?

1. Yes. MJ doesn't seem like he beat some great rival because he was clearly the best player. Reggie Miller and Payton could give him trouble, but he was clearly better than them. There were other elite perimeter players in his era, Bird and Magic and Dominique in the 80s, Isaiah and Dominique at the turn of the decade, Grant Hill, Penny, and Payton in the mid-90s, but Jordan always won against them so it was hard for a real "rivalry" to form. It's sort of like how the Wizards always played hard against the Cavs, but it wasn't viewed as a rivalry league-wide since Cleveland always won.

2. See above. Payton could occasionally shut him down, but MJ still won so it didn't really matter.

[jbryan1984]

All the Bad Boys Pistons
Barkley
Stockton/Malone
Drexler
Magic
Shaq
Late 80s/early 90s Cavs
Reggie

[Scott Baker]

To be fair, I will use the most recent lists that have been compiled:

Elliot Kalb (2004) Who's Better, Who's Best in Basketball?

1. Shaq
2. Wilt
3. Jordan
4. Russell
5. Kareem
6. Bird
7. Magic
8. Oscar
9. Duncan
10. Cousy

I saw this in Barnes and Noble last year, opened it up, saw Shaq was #1, closed the book.

[guy]

Now, first of all, let's establish an objective standard. I have no agenda here other than the unceasing search for truth, wherever it might lead.

To be fair, I will use the most recent lists that have been compiled:

Elliot Kalb (2004) Who's Better, Who's Best in Basketball?

1. Shaq
2. Wilt
3. Jordan
4. Russell
5. Kareem
6. Bird
7. Magic
8. Oscar
9. Duncan
10. Cousy
11. Pettit
12. West
13. Baylor
14. Moses Malone
15. Dr. J
16. Hakeem
17. Karl Malone
18. Kobe
19. Mikan
20. Robinson
21. Barkley
22. Barry
23. Dolph Schayes
24. Havlicek
25. Isiah

Simmons (2009) The Book of Basketball

1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Wilt
7. Duncan
8. West
9. Oscar
10. Hakeem
11. Shaq
12. Moses Malone
13. Havlicek
14. Baylor
15. Kobe
16. Dr. J
17. Pettit
18. Karl Malone
19. Barkley
20. LeBron
21. Cousy
22. Garnett
23. Isiah
24. Pippen
25. Stockton

SLAM (2009)

1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Russell
4. Shaq
5. Oscar
6. Magic
7. Kareem
8. Duncan
9. Bird
10. West
11. Baylor
12. Kobe
13. Hakeem
14. Pettit
15. Dr. J
16. Moses Malone
17. Havlicek
18. Karl Malone
19. Isiah
20. Barkley
21. Rick Barry
22. Stockton
23. Elvin Hayes
24. Cousy
25. David Robinson

These are the most recent GOAT player lists that have been compiled, and these will be referred to in order to determine the consensus.

(cont.)

Honestly, I really don't get why Oscar, West, Baylor, Pettit are always considered to be on such a higher level then Malone, Barkley, Isiah, Robinson, and maybe even Drexler and Ewing. I feel like those guys get by alot on the fact that they're pioneers, which is fair to a certain extent. I also feel like alot of people, maybe even the experts, don't look at things in full context.

People look at Oscar's triple-double achievements and don't seem to take into account that much of that was a product of the higher pace. Magic, Jordan, Bird, Pippen, Kidd, Hill, or Lebron probably could've done it playing in that pace and especially if they were going for it. Take that into account, and then look at his team success, and there's virtually none until he teamed up with Kareem. Sure, you could say he had to go up against Russell and Wilt's teams, but you can say that about pretty much anyone in any era.

West and Baylor usually get by on the fact that they made it to 8-9 Finals appearances. Nobody takes into account that there were less teams and less rounds so of course it was more likely for a great team to make it to that many finals then it was in later eras. Also, unlike the players in the 90s that I mentioned, these guys were playing with each other. I'm sure if Barkley played on the Spurs with Robinson they would've made it to alot more Finals then they did.

Pettit's main thing on his resume is that he won a title against Russelll. Russell missed two games in those Finals. If Jordan missed two games in a series, there's a good chance Malone, Ewing, Barkley, or Drexler have 1 more title.

So IMO, I don't see why there should be some penalty towards Jordan for this. In fact, the implying that Jordan didn't play against other great players is insane. Jordan played in a span of 20 years. Other great players who's primes came during that time were Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Shaq, and Duncan. Shortly after Jordan retired finally, we've seen the primes of Kobe, Lebron, and Wade. Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe are all top 10 players ever, and Lebron and Wade have a pretty good chance at getting there. I know Jordan didn't face all these players that much, but my point is due to the timeframe, its not hard to compare Jordan with all of these other greats, and all of these greats with each other in general. Most people agree that Jordan was better then all of those guys, and they didn't necessarily need to see Jordan face all of those guys in a bunch of playoff series to come to that conclusion.

[guy]

I saw this in Barnes and Noble last year, opened it up, saw Shaq was #1, closed the book.

I agree. Some of his arguments are really stupid as well. He says that Shaq and Wilt shouldn't be penalized for their poor FT shooting because it was a testament to their greatness that they were still that great anyway. IMO, its complete BS because obviously if they were good FT shooters he and anyone else would think of them as even greater players and rightfully so. He also penalizes Jordan for losing focus+motivation and retiring so much throughout his career, which is stupid as well because production should be all that really matters, not what drove that production, and we all know Jordan is arguably already penalized for retiring because it stopped him for accomplishing even more.

Of course, Bill Simmons' book has its flaws too though. I think its a disgrace that Shaq isn't even in the top 10, and when arguing about Jordan being #1 he goes off on some story that had nothing with basketball.

Both books are interesting, but Simmons' book is still much better and one of my favorites.

[Holy Random]

ISH is definitely more enjoyable when they're nearly all banned like they are now.

Omg, did Jeff FINALLY ban them? Wow, ISH is going to be tolerable now.

[Glide2keva]

How can you penalize Jordan for his competition? The russell/wilt era is very overrated IMO.

As mentioned Jordan played and beat guys who should be higher on the list than they are. Tue fact that he prevented the cavs, Knicks, jazz, pacers, sixers, suns, blazers, etc. from winning one title during his run is an amazing accomplishment.

I think Russell winning 11 rings in 13 years is awesome, but in reality, they played a different brand of basketball, there were 10 teamsand players were less athletic.

Jordan is tops on my list, but it's still my opinion.

[97 bulls]

How can you penalize Jordan for his competition? The russell/wilt era is very overrated IMO.

As mentioned Jordan played and beat guys who should be higher on the list than they are. Tue fact that he prevented the cavs, Knicks, jazz, pacers, sixers, suns, blazers, etc. from winning one title during his run is an amazing accomplishment.

I think Russell winning 11 rings in 13 years is awesome, but in reality, they played a different brand of basketball, there were 10 teamsand players were less athletic.

Jordan is tops on my list, but it's still my opinion.

The OP clearly has an agenda. Offcourse russell beat the same guys multiple times. There were only around 10 teeams in the league.

And jordan beat plenty of guys that were top 5 at their positions.

Pg magic and stockton
Sg drexler
Sf
Pf barkley,malone
C shaq

[Ruh-Roh]

The OP clearly has an agenda. Offcourse russell beat the same guys multiple times. There were only around 10 teeams in the league.

And jordan beat plenty of guys that were top 5 at their positions.

Pg magic and stockton
Sg drexler
Sf
Pf barkley,malone
C shaq

What's my agenda? I have stated...

I completely agree with Bill Simmons having Jordan at #1, Russell #2, but I also believe Russell should always be in the conversation for top dog.

Jordan was the greatest player, Russell was the greatest winner.

I made the thread because Regul8er brought up a point about rivalries that I initially disagreed with just thinking about the Pistons especially since that was a hump he didn't get over at first, but his point was something I hadn't evaluated all the way and was interesting. That and I didn't want to hijack another good thread to explore it.

Soooooo again, whats this clear agenda I have?

[ThaRegul8r]

What's my agenda? I have stated...



I made the thread because Regul8er brought up a point about rivalries that I initially disagreed with just thinking about the Pistons especially since that was a hump he didn't get over at first, but his point was something I hadn't evaluated all the way and was interesting. That and I didn't want to hijack another good thread to explore it.

Soooooo again, whats this clear agenda I have?

The "agenda" of course, would be looking at anything having to do with Jordan critically. One is allowed to do so with other legends of course, but heaven forbid one should happen to do the same with MJ.

[Ruh-Roh]

The "agenda" of course, would be looking at anything having to do with Jordan critically. One is allowed to do so with other legends of course, but heaven forbid one should happen to do the same with MJ.

I made a thread about exploring it critically, then PM'ed you to participate because I knew you had the most to offer on your side of the debate. You made a very interesting argument I hadn't encountered before and I was very interested in seeing where it would lead me.

Fuck you guys for labeling that as close-minded and subsequently discrediting any facilitating I can do.

That's pretty cheap.

I love Jordan. Do I think I'll ever change his rank in my view? Honestly, probably not, but I'd like to think I can, and at least I'm being honest about it and taking steps to entertain other arguments.

edit - I even repped you for taking part I think...

[Showtime]

People look at Oscar's triple-double achievements and don't seem to take into account that much of that was a product of the higher pace.

Then explain why nobody else was doing it at that time if it was easier? Nobody of his era came close to those numbers, and there were talented guards like West out there who handled the ball, could pass and score. The fact is, he was doing things nobody else was doing, similar to how Lebron was dominating with close to 30/8/8 numbers which nobody else was able to match. That level of domination is timeless, and there's a reason why people of his day say he deserves to be mentioned alongside Jordan, Magic, and Bird.

Also, they didn't exactly give away assists as liberally as they do today, and they were more strict on the traveling and carrying violations. It takes a very skilled player to do what Oscar did, and not only that, but he helped revolutionize perimeter play with his ability in the midrange with his pump fake jumpshot, and his post play when he bodied up smaller guards.

Magic, Jordan, Bird, Pippen, Kidd, Hill, or Lebron probably could've done it playing in that pace and especially if they were going for it.

You are proving your own counter-argument, which is that Oscar deserves to be mentioned with those top players, because only the best of the best could have done what he did. He was the Jordan/Bird/Magic/Lebron of his era. And I also doubt that Kidd, Pippen, or Hill would reach 30 PPG a game along with a triple double.

Take that into account, and then look at his team success, and there's virtually none until he teamed up with Kareem.

And do you know why that is? No, because I doubt you ever looked into it. Many look at the Royals and assume Oscar had empty stats because they didn't win that often. But few have read about the issues of ownership, the team division between Lucas and Oscar, and how Mo Stokes' injury probably cost them a title when they took the Celtics to 7 games. We have seen too many teams with great talent that just had the wrong pieces and bad chemistry to point fingers and say that Oscar was overrated.

Not enough time to finish my reply to the rest of your post...

[Glide2keva]

The "agenda" of course, would be looking at anything having to do with Jordan critically. One is allowed to do so with other legends of course, but heaven forbid one should happen to do the same with MJ.

Looking at Jordan critically is fine in my book, but any case for Russell has to take into account for there only being ten teams in the league and that his competition was overrated, given that a lot of his contemporaries awesome dimensional players. Most couldn't dribble with both hands and couldn't shoot, hence the higher, more inflated rebounding numbers.

Some of russell's comp needs to be brought down a few notches given that mostly all of jordan's comp could play in the former's erawhile none of Russell's comp could play in the latter's era. Jordan is being penalized for having to work harder for a title with less talent leading up to his title run, whereas Russell is being rewarded for coming to an already great team. Again there were only ten teams so yeah he would face those greats more often as his probability of facing them is higher. Jordan and magic and bird and Isaiah all faced more competition on a nightly basis than Russell. Plus having to travel, back to back games etc. their title runs to me are more impressive. Russell never had to travel any further west than Minnesota as most teams were in the same coast.

You can interpret this how you want as it is you prerogative, but I feel that magic, bird, zeke, and Jordan shouldn't be penalized for their competition, oh wait. We're not penalizing magic and bird and zeke, just Jordan and you say there's no agenda.

[Round Mound]

Bird and Barkley: The Best Forwards I Ever Saw