This year has been ideal for Lebron's legacy

[ShaqAttack3234]

Moses was the most dominant player in the NBA from '79 thru '85 (yes, even more dominant than Kareem in '80 when Kareem won his last MVP.)

at Moses being better than Kareem in '80. Kareem was the clear best player that year, and had one of the best playoff runs ever averaging 32/12.

Kareem was also the best in '79 and '81. Moses was the best in '82 and '83, while Bird was the best in '84 and '85.

And H2H, Moses BATTERED everyone. He was relentless and unstoppable in that span.

You're obsession with head to head match ups doesn't interest me. I do know that from what I've seen of the '81 series that Kareem and Moses didn't always match up. Moses was usually guarded by Jim Chones and Kareem was usually guarded by Billy Paultz.

IMHO, Hakeem had two post-season series in which his entire career was built. He outplayed Ewing in '94, and he pounded Robison in '95 (and Robinson basically matched him in their 42 other H2H's.) He was only regarded as the best player in the league in ONE season, and only a top-4 player four times in his career, and in fact, was not even listed as top-10 in EIGHT. He also led his teams to eight first-round exits.

Pure ignorance on Hakeem. nothing new though.

Every playoff series in those 2 runs was great, not just the '95 WCF and '94 finals.

Look at the '93 playoffs. His '86 and '87 playoffs or the '88 series vs Dallas when he averaged 38/17, and he was even in his prime then.

And you're really talking about what Hakeem lacks outside of his 2 titles? What did Moses do outside of his ONE? Lost in the 1st round team with a LOADED team in '84, the '84 Sixers were more talented than ANY team Hakeem had.

Moses was also a major disappointment in the '82 playoffs from what I've read on the series.

And Kareem had too many flop jobs in big games, entire series, and even entire post-seasons. He played in poorly in some, and was outplayed in several. Which is something that the Wilt-detractors can't claim. And Kareem was handed a ring in '88 (he was AWFUL in that post-season, and even WORSE in the Finals), and I honestly believe that the '87 Lakers would have romped to a title with Green and Thompson playing more time, and without Kareem.

You're disrespect for Kareem's contributions in '87 is just amazing. He was averaging close to 20 ppg in the playoffs and still one of the top post players, still drew double teams and hit clutch shots.

They're not beating Boston without him. Sorry, but it's not happening. They probably get to the finals though with that weak West.

Not that Kareem's '87 ring is what he should be ranked on anyone. He won 4 as the first option and as arguably the best player, and 3 as the clear best player. Which compares to almost everyone, and compares favorably to Magic, who has 2 as the clear best player, 3 as arguably the best player, and 5 total, also ranking behind Kareem.

I stand by Magic over Kareem. He won a ring while Kareem was watching the game from his couch. He won 63 games the year after he retired. And he followed that up by taking an over-the-hill roster to a 58-24 record in his last season, and a trip to the Finals. In fact, even with loaded rosters, prior to Magic's arrival, the Lakers were not much better than an ordinary team. And after he retired they were a .500 team...or about where they were before he arrived. In between... 60 wins per season on AVERAGE, NINE Finals, and FIVE titles. Not a coincidence.

No, it's not a coincidence that you leave out so many key details. it's because you do a terrible job hiding your agenda.

Magic didn't win a title with Kareem watching. He won ONE game, and got great support from Wilkes in that game(37 and 10). Without Kareem's dominant play through the first 5, they're not even position. And how far would they have even gotten in the '80 playoffs without their BEST player?

[PyrrhusX]

11th?

I don't see him there yet.

Russell, MJ, Magic, and Wilt in any order for 1-4.

Kareem with a dropoff to #5.

Shaq and Duncan in a tie at #6

Kobe at #8
Bird at #9
Moses at #10
Hakeem at #11

If he wins two titles, and assuming he is the FMVP in both, then he will be knocking on Kobe's door.

Totally agree on the idea that the top 6 is locked up. Lebron mgiht retire in the top 10 all time but towards the latter part of the group imo.

[lakers_forever]

You're right...we'll never agree.
IMHO, Hakeem had two post-season series in which his entire career was built. He outplayed Ewing in '94, and he pounded Robison in '95 (and Robinson basically matched him in their 42 other H2H's.) And you will never convince me that he outplayed Shaq in the '95 Finals (when Hakeem's TEAMMATES just overwhelmed Shaq's) In fact, Shaq ABUSED Hakeem in the majority of their H2H's. He was only regarded as the best player in the league in ONE season, and only a top-4 player FOUR times in his 18 season career, and in fact, was not even listed as top-10 in EIGHT. He also led his teams to eight first-round exits.

Olajuwon is the most overrated legend here. He was not greater than Duncan, Kobe or Shaq. Hakeem was considered the best player on the game. Before the 94 NBA playoffs, no one thought he was the best player in the NBA. He had a monster playoffs and deserves to be called the best player that year. But he was never the consensous best player in the league, like Shaq, Duncan, Kobe and Moses all were at some point.

[lakers_forever]

Olajuwon could not make the All NBA FIRST TEAM for 3 straight years in his prim:. 1990, 1991 and 1992, when he was 27, 28 and 29 years old.

Which of Kobe, Duncan, Moses and Shaq also failed to do so? He wasn't considered the consensus best center for a good part of his prime (and it was not like he was battling Kareem and Wilt , it was Ewing and Robinsons for that All nba first team spot in those years).

[ShaqAttack3234]

Olajuwon is the most overrated legend here. He was not greater than Duncan, Kobe or Shaq. Hakeem was considered the best player on the game. Before the 94 NBA playoffs, no one thought he was the best player in the NBA. He had a monster playoffs and deserves to be called the best player that year. But he was never the consensous best player in the league, like Shaq, Duncan, Kobe and Moses all were at some point.

Olajuwon took his game to the next level in '93. But he was a flat out better player than Kobe, and I'd say Duncan as well. He's very close with Shaq, I have a tough time deciding.

Olajuwon could not make the All NBA FIRST TEAM for 3 straight years in his prim:. 1990, 1991 and 1992, when he was 27, 28 and 29 years old.

Which of Kobe, Duncan, Moses and Shaq also failed to do so? He wasn't considered the consensus best center for a good part of his prime (and it was not like he was battling Kareem and Wilt for, it was Ewing and Robinsons for that All nba first team spot in those years).

Olajuwon was out for 26 games in '91. And in '90, he finished behind Ewing who had by far the best season of his career. 29/11/4 on 55% while Mychal Thompson said Ewing might be the best in the league that year, and Jordan said he didn't see anyone better than Ewing. Exaggerations, but it tells you how good Ewing was in a year that Jordan and Magic were in their primes.

There's only one all-nba spot for center so it's tougher to make 1st team when there's another elite player at that position.

Hakeem was penalized for not making the playoffs in '92, even though it was because his team was 2-10 without him and 40-30 with him.

Besides it doesn't change how good he was from '93-'96.

And who the hell was better than Hakeem in '94 and '95. He was pretty clearly the best player those years.

[lakers_forever]

Olajuwon took his game to the next level in '93. But he was a flat out better player than Kobe, and I'd say Duncan as well. He's very close with Shaq, I have a tough time deciding.



Olajuwon was out for 26 games in '91. And in '90, he finished behind Ewing who had by far the best season of his career. 29/11/4 on 55% while Mychal Thompson said Ewing might be the best in the league that year, and Jordan said he didn't see anyone better than Ewing. Exaggerations, but it tells you how good Ewing was in a year that Jordan and Magic were in their primes.

Kobe, Duncan and Shaq easily had better careers than Olajuwon. That's why they are greater. Him being a better player than Kobe is just your opinion. And if we consider who was the "better player", Oscar should be top 5 or at least consensus top 10 and he is not.

What about 92? When 17 players had points in the MVP ranking, but he did not get a single one.

[pauk]

Initially, I thought a title wouldn't alter Lebron's ranking too much on my list(I had him around top 15) because of the incredible amount of help with Wade as a top 3-4 player and then Bosh as a 7-time all-star and 3rd option.

But Wade has clearly fallen off this year, and is now arguably not one of the top 5 best players in the game, and Bosh was out for almost all of the ECSF and ECF before making a big impact last night. And because the big 3 wasn't the same for this run, it caused Lebron to do a lot more than he had to last year to reach the finals. He had a strong playoff run last season to reach the finals, but is now having an all-time great playoff run.

Lebron is playing at the historic level I knew he was capable of, and did what I expected him to by still winning with help that's not as spectacular as last year, or how they looked on paper entering the playoffs.

I didn't think he'd ever top his '09 season, but if he does his job in the finals, I may have to call this his best season. He can really erase all of the criticism. I was concerned that Lebron was relying too much on all of his transition opportunities this year, but it hasn't mattered since he's been able to get them in the postseason.

31/10/5 on 51% through the first 3 rounds and excellent defense plus 34/11/4 on 53% + excellent defense vs the league's best defensive team in the ECF. It didn't hurt that Wade was the primary focus of Boston's defense, but I'd have to call this Lebron's best series.

They have a tough task ahead, OKC has their own big 3 and probably more talent outside of their big 3 than Miami, and they have the second best player in the league(yes...second best, Lebron is still the best player in the league, and this is the season it's been the most obvious).

But if Lebron doesn't choke like last year, I'll be able to rank him no lower than 11th all-time. He had some bad luck in '09, playing at a level easily high enough to win a title, and had lost the Orlando series due two last second shots, his supporting cast playing below their standards and Orlando providing terrible match up problems, particularly Howard and Lewis.

Great post...

Although i can see Miami maybe losing Finals no matter how awesome Lebron plays considering Wade/Bosh & supporting cast compared to the

[ShaqAttack3234]

Kobe, Duncan and Shaq easily had better careers than Olajuwon. That's why they are greater. Him being a better player than Kobe is just your opinion. And if we consider who was the "better player", Oscar should be top 5 or at least consensus top 10 and he is not.

Hakeem had the better prime than Kobe and Duncan, and about even with Shaq, which is all that matters to me. Everything else such as this "career" nonsense depends on circumstances.

Better player is the same exact thing as greater player to me.

And I don't believe Oscar would be top 5 or top 10 either way, difficult to say without there being more than a few games available, though.

What about 92? When 17 players had points in the MVP ranking, but he did not get a single one.

Shouldn't Hakeem leading a team that could only go 2-10 without him to a 40-30 record matter more than MVP voters? They are just writers with their own opinion like you and me.

Hakeem's reputation was low at the time because of trade demands, doesn't mean he wasn't a great player.

[QUOTE=pauk]Great post...

Although i can see Miami maybe losing Finals no matter how awesome Lebron plays considering Wade/Bosh & supporting cast compared to the

[1987_Lakers]

If LeBron wins atleast 3 titles I will rank him ahead of Bird. It's very rare to find players who dominate ever aspect of the game like LeBron.

[Carbine]

"Better player is the same exact thing as greater player to me."

I've never understood this. It completely puts longevity into the corner like it don't mean anything. What Garnett just did helps his career, to me. Him doing what he just did at 36 or whatever he is, that's amazing. Just because he's not in his prime anymore doesn't mean what he did shouldn't count.

Same with Malone. Stupid longevity, maybe not the best prime, but his longevity is a really big part of his career. Kareem's longevity is a really big staple of his argument as GOAT.

TMac in his prime, as an individual player..... you could argue he was Kobe's equal. Or at worst just slightly behind him, but just barely.....but he's waaaaay down there on the all-time list compared to Kobe.

To judge someone on their primes is leaving out the "rise" and "decline" of their careers, which is a vast majority of it.

[ShaqAttack3234]

"Better player is the same exact thing as greater player to me."

I've never understood this. It completely puts longevity into the corner like it don't mean anything. What Garnett just did helps his career, to me. Him doing what he just did at 36 or whatever he is, that's amazing. Just because he's not in his prime anymore doesn't mean what he did shouldn't count.

I've never understood why people on this board actually try to pretend that better player and greater player mean different things. If it's about longevity, then it should be worded differently.

People can value longevity all they want, I'm not saying it means nothing. I am amazed by Malone and Kareem's longevity. But it matters far less to me than how good they were during their prime. Simply because there's a limit to how inferior a player can be to another in their best years and call them better with a straight face.

Hakeem wasn't exactly lacking in the longevity department either. His longevity was about as good as any top 10 player not named Kareem, and better than some. He emerged as one of the top players in the league in just his 2nd season in '86 upsetting a more talented Laker team who won titles the previous year and following year, and got Houston to the finals. Then 10 years later in '96, he was still the second best player in the game behind only MJ, and still one of the better players in '97.

TMac in his prime, as an individual player..... you could argue he was Kobe's equal. Or at worst just slightly behind him, but just barely.....but he's waaaaay down there on the all-time list compared to Kobe.

T-Mac's prime is clearly not as good as Kobe's. His peak in '03 was comparable, but still behind 3 of Kobe's years, imo('06-'08).

To judge someone on their primes is leaving out the "rise" and "decline" of their careers, which is a vast majority of it.

That's why I include an extended prime. For example, Kobe's true prime to me was '03-'09, but he wasn't far off from '01-'10 so I factor that in. And Shaq's true prime was '98-'02, but I'd call '95-'03 his extended prime.

[Carbine]

Like someone else mentioned then, how come Oscar is in the 11-15 range when as a pure basketball player, he probably deserves every right to be in the upper elite to ever play. The way former players who played against him or saw him speaks so highly of him, and put together with his individual stats.... how is he so far down on your list?

That doesn't make sense. If "better player is the greater player" is the standard which you use, he should be in the top 5-8.

[Dizzle-2k7]

Tim Duncan = overall best big man ever (teammate, friend, brother, lover, protector, offcourt, oncourt, lockeroom, press, media, fundraisers, nba cares events)

[ShaqAttack3234]

Like someone else mentioned then, how come Oscar is in the 11-15 range when as a pure basketball player, he probably deserves every right to be in the upper elite to ever play. The way former players who played against him or saw him speaks so highly of him, and put together with his individual stats.... how is he so far down on your list?

That doesn't make sense. If "better player is the greater player" is the standard which you use, he should be in the top 5-8.

I don't agree that he should be that high, that's what you're not getting. You think he's better than I do.

Russell and Wilt were better and considered the 2 best by most while playing at the same time Oscar did. Then I'll definitely add Jordan, Kareem, Shaq, Bird and Hakeem as better players from later eras. As well as Magic(best PG), Duncan(great two-way big man, with no flaw other than FT shooting which wasn't always a flaw, that makes a bigger impact to me) and Kobe(Kobe has scoring and defense, while Oscar has passing).

I think Lebron is a better player too. They scored in different ways, Oscar with a better post game and mid-range, Lebron with the explosiveness and size at 6'8", 265-270. Both are great passers, wouldn't necessarily disagree with someone choosing Oscar there, not enough footage for me to come to a definitive conclusion, though and Lebron is the best passing/playmaking non-PG I know of other than Bird. Lebron has defense and rebounding and seems better at carrying a team.

Oscar would be in the same range for me as Lebron currently, Barkley, KG, Moses and West(Oscar generally seemed to be regarded as better, so I'd probably defer to that without having seen more than a handful of games of each).

I'm not as convinced as Oscar as some, I think people look at the triple double season out of context and overrate him due to that. I respect those that know more of him than that and don't base their case on that. He didn't really lead a team anywhere either, though he did have the Russell excuse in some years, and the '67 Sixers in another year. As I said, I'm not as convinced as some, certainly not enough to even consider putting him in my top 10, but will give him a certain amount of respect just because of how his peers talk about him. And because I do think he had some skills that would allow him to be a productive player today.

[YAWN]

1 ring shaqattack? are you kidding?

he needs 2 rings to sniff #11 IMO..

How would this resume:
1 ring
1x Finals mvp
3x MVP
1x Scoring Champ
8x All Star
8x All NBA
4x All Defense

Be ranked ahead of this one..:
2 Rings
2x Finals mvps
1x MVP
2x DPOY
12x All Star
12x All NBA
9x All Defense