Willis Reed dunks on Happy Hairston G3 1970 NBA Finals

[mehyaM24]

Here was the newspaper recap:



Overall:

KAJ: 23 pts, 20 rebs, 2 assts, 2 blks, 9-21 FG/FGA, 5-9 FT/FTA

Wilt: 25 pts, 23 rebs, 5 assts, 3 blks, 9-14 FG/FGA, 7-18 FT/FTA

when you take into account wilt stat padding for those numbers, it honestly isnt close. kareem was the better player.

its much like wilt's career. a top 10 player. an all-time great - but why do we praise stat-padding as greatness? i always hear about wilt's 50 PPG season average ,but never the the fact he took 40 field goal attempts to get those 50 points.

^^^^ to put it in perspective, when jordan averaged 37 PPG, he did so on 28 shots, and imo, against much more competition than wilt, with rules that favored his defensive player.

i mean really do people legit think jordan, lebron or Shaq couldn't get up to close to a 50 a night if they literally took 40 or more shots per? the most damming part about his 50 point year was his houdini act on his team mates in the postseason.

[LAZERUSS]

Weak Era

Obviously it was a "weak era." A skinny, uncoordinated, 6-5 white center dunking on a 6-2 nerdy white PF. And let's be honest here...that was an eight foot rim, too.

[LAZERUSS]

when you take into account wilt stat padding for those numbers, it honestly isnt close. kareem was the better player.

its much like wilt's career. a top 10 player. an all-time great - but why do we praise stat-padding as greatness? i always hear about wilt's 50 PPG season average ,but never the the fact he took 40 field goal attempts to get those 50 points.

^^^^ to put it in perspective, when jordan averaged 37 PPG, he did so on 28 shots, and imo, against much more competition than wilt, with rules that favored his defensive player.

i mean really do people legit think jordan, lebron or Shaq couldn't get up to close to a 50 a night if they literally took 40 or more shots per? the most damming part about his 50 point year was his houdini act on his team mates in the postseason.

Kareem averaged 33 FGAs against Wilt in their '72 WCF's, and guess what... 33.7 ppg. In fact, in that post-season, and against Wilt and Thurmond... 28.7 ppg on 28.9 FGAs per game. How come?

Oh, and when Chamberlain was scoring 50+ ppg, he was doing it on a .506 FG%, in a league which had an eFG% of .426.

His "houdini act?" Hmmm...he basically took a roster, the core of which was the same LAST PLACE roster he inherited as a rookie, and led them thru the first round of the playoffs, which included an at-the-limit game of 56 points and 35 rebounds, and then to a game seven, two point loss against the HOF-laden 60-20 Celtics. BTW, in that Boston series, Chamberlain averaged 34 ppg on a .468 FG%, which was slightly behind his ten regular season H2H's against Russell, of 39 ppg on a .468 FG%. And during the regular season, the NBA averaged 119 ppg on a .426 FG%...and in that post-season, the NBA averaged 112 ppg on a .411 FG%.

You seem to think that you can take just any player, and give him 40 FGAs, and he will score 50 points. Yet, how about this... in Hakeem's highest scoring regular season, he averaged 27.8 ppg on a .517 FG%, in an NBA that shot an eFG% of ... .500. And how about David Robinson? 29.8 ppg on a .507 FG%, in an NBA that shot an eFG% of .485. Contrast that with Wilt's 44.8 ppg season, which came on a FG% of .528, in an NBA that shot .441. Or Wilt's 33.5 ppg season, which came on a FG% of .540, in an NBA that shot .426. Or Wilt's '67 season, in which he averaged 24.1 ppg on a .683 FG%, in an NBA that shot .441.

The reality was, Chamberlain had an ENORMOUS stamina, which allowed him to run-up-and-down the floor for 48+ mpg, NO other player in NBA history could come anywhere near that.

As for Shaq...true, put him back in '62, and he MIGHT have scored 40 ppg. But he would certainly have had to adjust his game. Had he thrown elbows, and just bowled opposing players over, like he was allowed to do so in his era, and he would have been fouling out in the first quarters of games. Furthermore, he would have been called for numerous traveling and palming violations, which were ignored in his era.

[mehyaM24]

Kareem averaged 33 FGAs against Wilt in their '72 WCF's, and guess what... 33.7 ppg. In fact, in that post-season, and against Wilt and Thurmond... 28.7 ppg on 28.9 FGAs per game. How come?

kareem also played better defense, was a better rebounder and a slighty better passer. of course this doesn't explain why wilt, statpadding, is beheld so highly?

kareem is irrelvant to wilt's selfish, choking play in the postseason. there were countless teams that did NOT want him in his prime - can YOU explain that one? can YOU imagine anyone not wanting a prime lebron james or a prime Shaq if the option was available?

tbqh, wilt doesn't crack my top five list - and that is only because he and his postseason exploits do NOT deserve it. wilt is easily one of the GOAT athletes and i'll readily admit it is shortsided on anyone's part to hold his competition against him (i rank russell and kareem in my top 3) - but again, why do we award such selfish, statpadding play?

^^^^ i dont think there has been anyone besides wilt that has accumulated the most meaningless, scam-like numbers in history.

to me , its a shame for TEAM basketball that he is held in such regard (or at least compared to jordan and kareem)

(fyi wilt is somewhere in the bottom of my top 10. doesn't make him any less selfish however).

[CavaliersFTW]

kareem also played better defense, was a better rebounder and a slighty better passer. of course this doesn't explain why wilt, statpadding, is beheld so highly?

kareem is irrelvant to wilt's selfish, choking play in the postseason. there were countless teams that did NOT want him in his prime - can YOU explain that one? can YOU imagine anyone not wanting a prime lebron james or a prime Shaq if the option was available?

tbqh, wilt doesn't crack my top five list - and that is only because he and his postseason exploits do NOT deserve it. wilt is easily one of the GOAT athletes and i'll readily admit it is shortsided on anyone's part to hold his competition against him (i rank russell and kareem in my top 3) - but again, why do we award such selfish, statpadding play?

^^^^ i dont think there has been anyone besides wilt that has accumulated the most meaningless, scam-like numbers in history.

to me , its a shame for TEAM basketball that he is held in such regard (or at least compared to jordan and kareem)

(fyi wilt is somewhere in the bottom of my top 10. doesn't make him any less selfish however).

Better than who at those things, Wilt?

[LAZERUSS]

when you take into account wilt stat padding for those numbers, it honestly isnt close. kareem was the better player.

its much like wilt's career. a top 10 player. an all-time great - but why do we praise stat-padding as greatness? i always hear about wilt's 50 PPG season average ,but never the the fact he took 40 field goal attempts to get those 50 points.

^^^^ to put it in perspective, when jordan averaged 37 PPG, he did so on 28 shots, and imo, against much more competition than wilt, with rules that favored his defensive player.

i mean really do people legit think jordan, lebron or Shaq couldn't get up to close to a 50 a night if they literally took 40 or more shots per? the most damming part about his 50 point year was his houdini act on his team mates in the postseason.

In their four seasons in the league together, Chamberlain was a considerably better "winner." He led his teams to three Finals, while KAJ only did it once.

Furthermore, you want an example of "stats-padding?" How about this? In KAJ's '72 regular season, he averaged 34.8 ppg on a .574 FG%. And he did so on a career high 44 mpg, for a team that went 63-19, and had a ppg differential of +11.1 ppg. In the post-season... 28.7 ppg on a .437 FG%, and his team was eliminated by Wilt's in the WCF's, in a series in which KAJ averaged 33.7 ppg on a .457 FG%. Oh, and in the last four games of that series, KAJ shot, get this... .414 from the field.

But it gets better. Kareem was traded to the Lakers before the start of the 75-76 season, to a team that had gone 30-52 the year before. Now, did KAJ put up "Wilt-like" numbers for a team that obviously needed him too? Hell no! He played 41 mpg, averaged 27.7 ppg, and shot .529 from the field. His team went 40-42, and didn't make the playoffs.

The REALITY was, a PRIME Kareem had much less overall team success than a PRIME Chamberlain did. And he was nowhere near the force that a prime Wilt had been, either. In his first ten seasons, KAJ went to two Finals, (and folded his tent in a game seven, on his home floor, in one of them...in a blowout loss); lost in the first round (once to a much worse team, in a series in which he was downright awful) TWICE (and the other first round loss came against an inferior Seattle team that had a slightly better record); was swept once with HCA; and missed the playoffs altogether, twice.

I am not necessarily blaming Kareem for all of the above, but then again, a prime Chamberlain carried much worse rosters considerably farther than KAJ ever did.

Had Wilt been fortunate enough to have had MAGIC for TEN seasons (as well as "Big Game James" Worthy for SIX seasons), and most certainly would have won just as many rings as KAJ did.

[LAZERUSS]

kareem also played better defense, was a better rebounder and a slighty better passer. of course this doesn't explain why wilt, statpadding, is beheld so highly?

kareem is irrelvant to wilt's selfish, choking play in the postseason. there were countless teams that did NOT want him in his prime - can YOU explain that one? can YOU imagine anyone not wanting a prime lebron james or a prime Shaq if the option was available?

tbqh, wilt doesn't crack my top five list - and that is only because he and his postseason exploits do NOT deserve it. wilt is easily one of the GOAT athletes and i'll readily admit it is shortsided on anyone's part to hold his competition against him (i rank russell and kareem in my top 3) - but again, why do we award such selfish, statpadding play?

^^^^ i dont think there has been anyone besides wilt that has accumulated the most meaningless, scam-like numbers in history.

to me , its a shame for TEAM basketball that he is held in such regard (or at least compared to jordan and kareem)

(fyi wilt is somewhere in the bottom of my top 10. doesn't make him any less selfish however).

Kareem was NEVER even close to the rebounder, or defender, that Wilt was. Hell, in their four years in the league together, Chamberlain led the league three times (and would have done it four had he not been injured.) And he was voted First Team All-Defense in his last two seasons (and ahead of Kareem BTW.) And all of that came from a Wilt who was well past his prime, and playing on a surgcally repaired knee.

[LAZERUSS]

kareem also played better defense, was a better rebounder and a slighty better passer. of course this doesn't explain why wilt, statpadding, is beheld so highly?

kareem is irrelvant to wilt's selfish, choking play in the postseason. there were countless teams that did NOT want him in his prime - can YOU explain that one? can YOU imagine anyone not wanting a prime lebron james or a prime Shaq if the option was available?

tbqh, wilt doesn't crack my top five list - and that is only because he and his postseason exploits do NOT deserve it. wilt is easily one of the GOAT athletes and i'll readily admit it is shortsided on anyone's part to hold his competition against him (i rank russell and kareem in my top 3) - but again, why do we award such selfish, statpadding play?

^^^^ i dont think there has been anyone besides wilt that has accumulated the most meaningless, scam-like numbers in history.

to me , its a shame for TEAM basketball that he is held in such regard (or at least compared to jordan and kareem)

(fyi wilt is somewhere in the bottom of my top 10. doesn't make him any less selfish however).

Here were Wilt's and KAJ's MUST WIN playoff game numbers:

KAJ in 24 career must win games:

Team: 12-12

25.5 ppg
12.0 rpg
.521 FG%

Wilt's numbers in those 23 games...13 of which came against HOF starting centers.

12-11 W-L record

31.1 ppg (Regular season career average was 30.1 ppg)
26.1 rpg (Regular season career average was 22.9 rpg)
3.4 apg (Regular season career average was 4.4 apg)
.540 FG% (Regular season career average was .540 FG%)


3 games of 50+ points

5 games of 40+ points (including a Finals 40+ elimination game)

13 games of 30+ points

6 games of 30+ rebounds

20 games of 20+ rebounds.


Furthermore, Wilt was "traded" TWICE. Once, when his team panicked because they thought he had a heart ailment (and for three players and a boatload of cash.) And the other? When Chamberlain basically DEMANDED a trade, or else he would jump to the ABA (and again, for three players.)

Kareem was traded at his peak, as well. Granted, he also wanted to be traded.

BTW, the BOTH teams that Wilt left plummetted, and both teams he was traded to became immediate title contenders (and he would also lead both teams to titles within a few years.)


Oh, and how do YOU explain the FACT, that Chamberlain held a 7-2 margin in First-Team All-NBA selections over RUSSELL, in their ten seasons in the league together?

[Psileas]

Lazeruss, the troll you're constantly debating with here doesn't even know this was a closely contested game and that each one of Wilt's points, rebounds, defensive plays, etc were important. He quotes Wilt's stats from this game and claims Wilt was padding. According to the same logic, if he was padding, so was Kareem, who didn't miss a single second of that game.

[LAZERUSS]

Lazeruss, the troll you're constantly debating with here doesn't even know this was a closely contested game and that each one of Wilt's points, rebounds, defensive plays, etc were important. He quotes Wilt's stats from this game and claims Wilt was padding. According to the same logic, if he was padding, so was Kareem, who didn't miss a single second of that game.

I'm sure he never even saw the two player, either.

BTW, as you know, I am a huge fan of Kareem's. IMHO, easily the greatest college player of all-time. And, he was clearly a top-5 NBA player (I have him at #4, behind Wilt, MJ, and Magic.) And a peak Kareem was as close to Wilt as anyone who has ever played the game.

It just irritates me that somehow KAJ is considered the better player, at least on this forum, when the reality was, in their primes, Chamberlain had considerably better team success, and was more of a force (in EVERY facet of the game.) Kareem's "team success" didn't come until he was past his prime (ok, maybe in 79-80), and even then, the reality was, it was MAGIC who was leading (and often carrying) those teams.

[LAZERUSS]

Lazeruss, the troll you're constantly debating with here doesn't even know this was a closely contested game and that each one of Wilt's points, rebounds, defensive plays, etc were important. He quotes Wilt's stats from this game and claims Wilt was padding. According to the same logic, if he was padding, so was Kareem, who didn't miss a single second of that game.

As for that particular game (their first H2H), Chamberlain outscored Kareem in the second half, 18-8...in a tightly contested game. Again, Wilt was more clutch. Even a way-past-his-prime Wilt, in the clinching playoff H2H's in '71 and '72 was considerably more "clutch." Hell, in their '71 finale, when Wilt left the floor with a minute remaining, he received a standing ovation...and the game was played in Milwaukee!

[stanlove1111]

Clips from Wilt and Kareem's first matchup; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puvNhQsBv40

Thanks..Great stuff. I remember the first time they played against each other. I live in the East and back then you didn't find out what happened until the afternoon paper came. I remember reading about it that afternoon, it was a big deal at the time..

[La Frescobaldi]

It wasn't ME that posted "Reed > Wilt."

And it was a powerful dunk, by a powerful man. He may have even had a few of those against Wilt, too, although in the vast majority of their career H2H's, Reed was popping behind screens and hitting 10-15 footers against Chamberlain. In any case, a PRIME Wilt was FAR more dominant.

Having said that, Reed was the Zack Randolph of his era (albeit, a better defender), and would be a star in today's NBA.

I literally can't believe you said that out loud.

Everybody evacuate!!!

[La Frescobaldi]

kareem also played better defense, was a better rebounder and a slighty better passer. of course this doesn't explain why wilt, statpadding, is beheld so highly?

kareem is irrelvant to wilt's selfish, choking play in the postseason. there were countless teams that did NOT want him in his prime - can YOU explain that one? can YOU imagine anyone not wanting a prime lebron james or a prime Shaq if the option was available?

tbqh, wilt doesn't crack my top five list - and that is only because he and his postseason exploits do NOT deserve it. wilt is easily one of the GOAT athletes and i'll readily admit it is shortsided on anyone's part to hold his competition against him (i rank russell and kareem in my top 3) - but again, why do we award such selfish, statpadding play?

^^^^ i dont think there has been anyone besides wilt that has accumulated the most meaningless, scam-like numbers in history.

to me , its a shame for TEAM basketball that he is held in such regard (or at least compared to jordan and kareem)

(fyi wilt is somewhere in the bottom of my top 10. doesn't make him any less selfish however).

You really don't know anything about those days man. Nothing at all.
That canary crack applies to your gas fumes too.

[LAZERUSS]

I literally can't believe you said that out loud.

Everybody evacuate!!!

Obviously Reed had a greater overall career and more accolades, but the two were nearly physically identical and nearly identical in terms of skill-sets. Both were roughly the same size, shot left-handed, ...and take a look at these numbers thru the same age (Reed only played until he was 31.)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...doza01&y2=2013