Prime Kobe & T-Mac>>>Prime Lebron & Wade

[Dave3]

Lebron never averaged 9 assist. Tmac played off the ball way more than Lebron does thus giving Lebron more opportunities for assist. If Lebron knew how to play off the ball then he would not have looked so stupid during the finals. In fact once he learns how to do this along with working on his post up skills then the Heat have a guaranteed dynasty imho. Also Tmac's assist remained solid with the emergence of Yao; the Rockets played an inside out game. People who just post stats only reveal the truth about how much they've actually watched a player.

1. Yes LeBron did average 9 apg. 8.6 is rounded up to 9, not down to 8. I made a mistake though (I thought Tmac's career high was 5.9 (hence I said 6) but it was actually 6.5, so then it's 7 apg, not 6.

2. I'm talking about Orlando Tmac (the title says prime) not Houston Tmac. In Orlando he was very ball dominant, though probably not as quite as LeBron. You're forgetting in 2003 he took 24 shots/game. That's a pretty large volume of shots. He also had many passes that led to assists but weren't direct assists. And Tmac playing more off the ball in Houston (which I thought was a bad idea by VanGundy considering Yao was a sophomore and Tmac was the reigning scoring champ) didn't hurt his assists at all, but it did hurt his scoring drastically. And I didn't post any stats until my last post. Everything before then was qualitative not quantitative, but it was going in circles so I brought up stats for evidence. I doubt there are many posters here who've seen more of Tmac than I have from 2002-2008.

[Dave3]

Dropping it down for post dunks is not a skill. Those dudes are 6'10 and athletic. It's not hard to pass them the ball if they get open or cut or something. Pick and roll, pick and pop, crisp passes that are on target...that's what LeBron excels at.

And like others have said, LeBron averaging 9pg doesn't mean much. Like others on here, I've watched TMacs career from the start and you are really underrating the guys playmaking abilities. Try watching some games and quit relying on stats.

I don't mean simply dropping it down to the post. I'm talking about seeing passing lanes that no one else would see. I'm talking about bullet passes through defenses or bounce passes in the perfect spot for the player to go up and easily dunk it. If you watched the Cavs from 2005-2010 you'd know the type of passes I was talking about. I'm not talking about cuts. I'm talking about when the player is already down there, and LeBron is able to put the ball in the perfect spot the instant the defense shifts slightly so that the offensive player can catch it and go up unopposed.

And once again, I watched the majority of Tmac's games from 2002-2008. In Orlando he was very ball dominant. Yeah he probably wasn't as ball dominant as LeBron, but it's hardly a huge gap like any of you guys are making it out to be. Once he got to Houston yes he touched the ball less, and it affected his field goal attempts. He was still a playmaker as much as he was in Orlando (and his assists increased some seasons because he played with better players) but he was less of a scorer. You guys forget that even when Tmac was in his prime and LeBron was entering the league, people considered LeBron a point guard or Magic Johnson type player purely because of his playmaking passing. Even as a rookie or sophomore people thought his playmaking and passing were matched by only point guards in the league. I don't know why then you're arguing that in his absolute prime (LeBron) he still wasn't as good as Tmac, who was a great scorer first and other things second. LeBron is a playmaker first, and other things second.

[DLeagueWannabe]

Honestly...

Bryant and McGrady would have been the closest thing to Jordan and Pippen.

IMO, McGrady was always supposed to be Pippen. That's the closest comparison if there ever was one.

[thejumpa]

I don't mean simply dropping it down to the post. I'm talking about seeing passing lanes that no one else would see. I'm talking about bullet passes through defenses or bounce passes in the perfect spot for the player to go up and easily dunk it. If you watched the Cavs from 2005-2010 you'd know the type of passes I was talking about. I'm not talking about cuts. I'm talking about when the player is already down there, and LeBron is able to put the ball in the perfect spot the instant the defense shifts slightly so that the offensive player can catch it and go up unopposed.

And once again, I watched the majority of Tmac's games from 2002-2008. In Orlando he was very ball dominant. Yeah he probably wasn't as ball dominant as LeBron, but it's hardly a huge gap like any of you guys are making it out to be. Once he got to Houston yes he touched the ball less, and it affected his field goal attempts. He was still a playmaker as much as he was in Orlando (and his assists increased some seasons because he played with better players) but he was less of a scorer. You guys forget that even when Tmac was in his prime and LeBron was entering the league, people considered LeBron a point guard or Magic Johnson type player purely because of his playmaking passing. Even as a rookie or sophomore people thought his playmaking and passing were matched by only point guards in the league. I don't know why then you're arguing that in his absolute prime (LeBron) he still wasn't as good as Tmac, who was a great scorer first and other things second. LeBron is a playmaker first, and other things second.

First off, LeBron and TMac are two of my favorite players of all time. I've followed LeBron since '02 and TMac since 99 or so. I've followed Tracy even more since his decline in Houston.

That being said, I now understand what you are saying about LeBron and his crisp, direct passes into the post. He can definitely do that but come on...that isn't his game and you know it. It's drive and kick to an open shooter. That's why he had shooters around him in Cleveland and Miami. If you give LeBron the ball and tell him to be your PG and run your offense, that's what you're gonna get. He's probably the best at it. That being said, his style DID inflate assist numbers(nothing wrong with that either) so you can't really be like "Oh, LeBron average 9apg so he's better at playmaking". Nah..doesn't work like that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Lziw...eature=related

As you can see in this video(although with corny ass music), TMac has pretty much ever passing skill LeBron has minus the ability to throw extremely hard passes that hit you in the chest in your sweet spot. Him being 6'8 and with a polished offensive game kept teams on their toes, bro. They knew he had the height to see over defenses, the hands to ball fake you out of your shoes, and the IQ to make passes that would set guys up for easy baskets. His playmaking abilities were much more than drive and kick or PnR/P.

Who's arguing that a prime LeBron isn't as good as a prime TMac? Sure as hell isn't me. FWIW, I think LeBron is still in his prime and like I said earlier, he's better than TMac simply because he impacts the game more. What I am saying is that TMacs passing/playmaking/ability is on par with LeBrons and possibly even better. He's EASILY the more skilled offensive player. LBJ has him in rebounding, defense, and he's also the more efficient scorer.

[KenneBell]

IMO '03 Kobe and T-Mac would be considered better than current Lebron and Wade if they played in the league right now.

Scoring wise they both trump those two. I don't think there's any players since prime Jordan that were as dynamic and creative ,inside and out on offense.

[Xsatyr]

1. Yes LeBron did average 9 apg. 8.6 is rounded up to 9, not down to 8. I made a mistake though (I thought Tmac's career high was 5.9 (hence I said 6) but it was actually 6.5, so then it's 7 apg, not 6.

2. I'm talking about Orlando Tmac (the title says prime) not Houston Tmac. In Orlando he was very ball dominant, though probably not as quite as LeBron. You're forgetting in 2003 he took 24 shots/game. That's a pretty large volume of shots. He also had many passes that led to assists but weren't direct assists. And Tmac playing more off the ball in Houston (which I thought was a bad idea by VanGundy considering Yao was a sophomore and Tmac was the reigning scoring champ) didn't hurt his assists at all, but it did hurt his scoring drastically. And I didn't post any stats until my last post. Everything before then was qualitative not quantitative, but it was going in circles so I brought up stats for evidence. I doubt there are many posters here who've seen more of Tmac than I have from 2002-2008.

I am not going to say Tmac averaged 7 nor will I say Lebron averaged 9, I will not round up. Also Yao was way more efficient than Tmac at scoring so they played through him. Tmac also played off the the ball while in Orlando, he also half-assed his entire career. There is a reason why Raptors, Rockets and Magic fans boo him. The guy would quit on games even when they were winning or still in the game. That is why I am Tmac hater, no respect for the guy. But when he wanted to go off through scoring or playmaking he could almost at will.

Perfect example of Tmac quitting in one game which he did throughout his career. His numbers could have been higher but he has no desire. Lebron is and will always be a better player than Tmac for that reason alone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjbkXewxlGI

[Samurai Swoosh]

IMO, McGrady was always supposed to be Pippen. That's the closest comparison if there ever was one.

No, McGrady was more alpha than Pippen. He was a WAY more polished scorer. McGrady is a great scorer. Pippen is a jack of all trades, master of none. The closest to Pippen, actually a superior version of Pippen IS LeBron James.

[Dave3]

First off, LeBron and TMac are two of my favorite players of all time. I've followed LeBron since '02 and TMac since 99 or so. I've followed Tracy even more since his decline in Houston.

That being said, I now understand what you are saying about LeBron and his crisp, direct passes into the post. He can definitely do that but come on...that isn't his game and you know it. It's drive and kick to an open shooter. That's why he had shooters around him in Cleveland and Miami. If you give LeBron the ball and tell him to be your PG and run your offense, that's what you're gonna get. He's probably the best at it. That being said, his style DID inflate assist numbers(nothing wrong with that either) so you can't really be like "Oh, LeBron average 9apg so he's better at playmaking". Nah..doesn't work like that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Lziw...eature=related

As you can see in this video(although with corny ass music), TMac has pretty much ever passing skill LeBron has minus the ability to throw extremely hard passes that hit you in the chest in your sweet spot. Him being 6'8 and with a polished offensive game kept teams on their toes, bro. They knew he had the height to see over defenses, the hands to ball fake you out of your shoes, and the IQ to make passes that would set guys up for easy baskets. His playmaking abilities were much more than drive and kick or PnR/P.

Who's arguing that a prime LeBron isn't as good as a prime TMac? Sure as hell isn't me. FWIW, I think LeBron is still in his prime and like I said earlier, he's better than TMac simply because he impacts the game more. What I am saying is that TMacs passing/playmaking/ability is on par with LeBrons and possibly even better. He's EASILY the more skilled offensive player. LBJ has him in rebounding, defense, and he's also the more efficient scorer.

LeBron's game was drive and kick only for the last 3 years. Before 2009 in Cleveland he had no shooters (Hughes, Snow, Gooden...) and most of his passes were the ones leading to dunks for the bigmen. His style changed when his teammates changed so as to suit their needs. He has the ability to assist both perimeter and under the basket shots. And again, I brought up 9 apg because prior to that we were going in circles with "yes he's better, no he's not"

And Tmac was a very good passer, but LeBron can do it with more consistency and he had better court vision. I'm not arguing passing directly, I'm arguing playmaking, which includes the passing, but also the ability to set up the open teammates and see openings other players won't. You can't just show that in a youtube video.

And I was talking about LeBron being better than Tmac as a playmaker, not overall.

[jlip]

Kobe and T-mac actually had mad skills, Wade and Lebron just use their athleticism.

Firstly, it is completely impossible to dominate the NBA in the 21st century with only athleticism. If one could, then players such as Gerald Green, Stromile Swift, and James White would be stars. Some level of skill must be present. Lebron and Wade are both athletic and skilled.

Secondly I laugh all the time at arguments that certain players are not legitimately good or not as good as others because they use their athletic advantages. Ummm...Isn't basketball an "ATHLETIC" competition? Aren't the players called...ATHLETES? So now an athlete using athleticism is supposed to be a bad thing...OKaaaay? Basketball is not darts or chess. It's not a sport based totally on skill. 9 times out of 10 some level of athleticism is required whether it's speed, quickness, strength, jumping ability, or endurance.

Finally there are more skills to the game than just having a nice jumper and low post footwork. Let's face it. In most discussions today, that's basically what a poster is thinking when he says that player A is more skilled than player B. I'll just let Oscar Robertson, who was arguably the most fundamentally skilled player ever, give his perspective on what constitutes basketball skills:

"...knowing how to run a good fast break is a skill. So is busting your hump and getting out on the wing and filling the lane at the proper angle...

Knowing how to rub off a defender when you use a pick is a skill. Knowing how to feel a defender with your body and read the court to see where help is coming from is a skill. Knowing how to stay in control, pace yourself, and not use all of your energy too early or give away all of your tricks, that's a skill. Setting solid picks and knowing how to get yourself open from them; knowing how to hit a guy with a pass the exact moment he frees himself and how to get him the ball in a place and at a time that allows him to shoot in rhythm; getting position low on the post; boxing out; playing solid man-to-man defense while also knowing where the ball is-- those are skills."

http://books.google.com/books?id=fs6...0skill&f=false

[thejumpa]

LeBron's game was drive and kick only for the last 3 years. Before 2009 in Cleveland he had no shooters (Hughes, Snow, Gooden...) and most of his passes were the ones leading to dunks for the bigmen. His style changed when his teammates changed so as to suit their needs. He has the ability to assist both perimeter and under the basket shots. And again, I brought up 9 apg because prior to that we were going in circles with "yes he's better, no he's not"

And Tmac was a very good passer, but LeBron can do it with more consistency and he had better court vision. I'm not arguing passing directly, I'm arguing playmaking, which includes the passing, but also the ability to set up the open teammates and see openings other players won't. You can't just show that in a youtube video.

And I was talking about LeBron being better than Tmac as a playmaker, not overall.

Ok gotcha. I guess we are gonna have agree to disagree. TMac can set up open teammates and see openings that other players don't as well. Just like LeBron. Remember, one of the biggest advantages Bron has over other ballhandlers is the fact that he's 6'8 and can see over the defense. TMac is the same height. I'd go as far to say that if he focused on his playmaking more than his offensive game in his later years(kinda like how he was in Detroit), he'd be a notch ABOVE LeBron in that area. There's no answer for a guy who can post up, hit the mid-range, hit the 3, can ball fake anyone, AND can make Steve Nash-ish passes. Plus, his first step was stupid quick. Man I miss the old TMac

You make a good point about LeBron from 03-07. He definitely didn't have shooters around him and his playmaking was clearly different. I forgot about that.

[PowerGlove]

I miss prime T-mac. I loved his fluid, aesthetically pleasing game. It was poetry in motion. I wished he and carter stayed together. I dont even care if they both left, I just wanted to see them together.

[Samurai Swoosh]

I miss prime T-mac. I loved his fluid, aesthetically pleasing game. It was poetry in motion. I wished he and carter stayed together. I dont even care if they both left, I just wanted to see them together.

I don't think Carter and VC together would've really worked, honestly.

McGrady going to Orland was what let his game flourish into "T-Mac"

[PowerGlove]

I don't think Carter and VC together would've really worked, honestly.

McGrady going to Orland was what let his game flourish into "T-Mac"

Probably not, but its always been something I've wanted to see. You didnt need much in the East back then to go far.

[Papaya Petee]

Nah, Wade and LeBron much more efficient, better defensive duo, and individually just as good or better.

Kobe wouldn't handle playing with another dude as good as him. Plus T-Mac isn't a winner.

[PowerGlove]

Nah, Wade and LeBron much more efficient, better defensive duo, and individually just as good or better.

Kobe wouldn't handle playing with another dude as good as him. Plus T-Mac isn't a winner.

Dude always raised his level of play in the playoffs. I'll never forget the playoff game where him and Yao scored like 70% of the Rockets points against the Jazz. That was the most disgusting performance from a supporting cast I have seen in some time.

Excuse me.... 74.6%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...704260UTA.html