PER...Joke Stat

[HurricaneKid]

How many players have had seasons of 24-24-8 .683, and likely with 10 bpg?

How many players have had seasons of 50-26?

Those are HISTORIC seasons.

Not a 24-10-3-2 .567 season. That is PALTRY in comparison.

Likely with 10bpg? You get that since there is no data the data sets aren't there right? While old timey folk might like to sit around drinking their Arnold Palmers and talk about how many blocks Wilt had 50 years ago you are discussing data that DOESN'T INCLUDE THAT INFORMATION.

You are yelling at the numbers for not including information that WAS NOT KEPT.

[Dr.J4ever]

Everyone here is making some good points. Laz is right though. No single stat or even a series of stats should be used to prove a point or points since they can easily be used or abused.

I'm not a fan of George W Bush, but if you remember his debate in 2000 with Al Gore, he used the term, "FUZZY MATH". That's what advanced stats can be, at times.

[Dr.J4ever]

Everyone here is making some good points. Laz is right though. No single stat or even a series of stats should be used to prove a point or points since they can easily be used or abused.

I'm not a fan of George W Bush, but if you remember his debate in 2000 with Al Gore, he used the term, "FUZZY MATH". That's what advanced stats can be, at times.

Let me qualify to say that I believe advanced stats have their place, if you use them in tandem by ALSO OBSERVING PLAYERS CLOSELY IN REAL TIME.

[La Frescobaldi]

Let me qualify to say that I believe advanced stats have their place, if you use them in tandem by ALSO OBSERVING PLAYERS CLOSELY IN REAL TIME.

Bobby Jones is a crystal clear example of advanced statistics being worse than useless.

[LAZERUSS]

You don't understand how stats work.

Since we don't have blocks and steals from that age there are fewer data sets for Lew to dominate. So statistically we can't demonstrate his superiority. Using PER from an age where several of the stats weren't even kept and attempting to compare it to the current age is insane. PER is only meant to compare the same year's statistical contributions. CERTAINLY not to compare seasons from when stats weren't even kept.

Any time you have limited data the hypotheses you base on that data are going to be worse.

The problem is...PER is somehow considered an actual RECORD. It doesn't come with an asterisk stating that...hey, AD's all-time RECORD season, came in a year in which he only played 35 mpg, and against an "x" percent league average in efficiency, etc, etc.

Furthermore, I could argue that even the all-time FG% RECORD, held by Chamberlain, would be MUCH higher in TODAY's era. His .683 in a league that shot an eFG% of .441, translates into .773 in today's NBA. And his .727 in a league that shot .456 translates into a .796 FG% in today's NBA. How come those figures aren't used then?

[Dr.J4ever]

Bobby Jones is a crystal clear example of advanced statistics being worse than useless.

Absolutely.

Bobby Jones would always seem to get that key block or key steal in the last 2 minutes of a close ball game, it was uncanny. He didn't always score a lot, even though at his peak with Denver, he was a pretty good scorer.

[La Frescobaldi]

Absolutely.

Bobby Jones would always seem to get that key block or key steal in the last 2 minutes of a close ball game, it was uncanny. He didn't always score a lot, even though at his peak with Denver, he was a pretty good scorer.

He undoubtedly had one of the worst +/- in the history of basketball.

from an old post............ the guys that really get it jammed to them are like Bobby Jones on the old Sixers and before that on the Denver Nuggets in the ABA and then he was a Gold-Miner for a season or maybe two in the NBA too.

He was a great basketball player - not good, not just All-Star - but his mentality was pure team. Whatever it takes to win. Make your teammates better. So he's basically unknown by anybody.

But what he would do, is go in a Philly-Boston tilt... when the Sixers were up by like 12 or 15 points but it was clear that the Doc had run out of gas and Boston was making one of those tremendous Celtics rallies.

Well there'd be Larry Bird going for one of his 40 point games, in the very fury of his early days.... but instead the Celtics rally would sputter, Bird would only get 32 on that game, McHale would only get 18 instead of 25, and Big Chief would get a technical for cheap-shotting Moses Malone because he wasn't smart enough to understand it was really the Bobby Jones double team that made him look like a fool.

So Bobby's +/- would look just like dirt but yet he had come off the bench, totally disrupted the Celtics rally, and kept the Sixers lead to 4 or 6 instead of going behind by 4 or 6.

You see? He would go in the game at the exact time where he would be made to look the absolute worst ever....

But yet there was no possibility of those Sixers teams getting to the Finals all those years without Bobby Jones.
Not 1 chance in 10,000 seasons of that lineup ever getting to the Finals without #24.... and who ever heard of him?

[LAZERUSS]

Likely with 10bpg? You get that since there is no data the data sets aren't there right? While old timey folk might like to sit around drinking their Arnold Palmers and talk about how many blocks Wilt had 50 years ago you are discussing data that DOESN'T INCLUDE THAT INFORMATION.

You are yelling at the numbers for not including information that WAS NOT KEPT.

I agree that doesn't include that information. If it did, he would likely have blocked 10 shots per game in '67.

As an example of his staggering bpg, we KNOW this much.

Julizaver has articles and research which will substantiate that Chamberlain had a KNOWN 570 blocks in 80 of his playoff games. Which is just HALF of them, and most of them are later in his career.

Two other posters here that have actually researched it, have claimed that Wilt averaged 5.4 bpg in his entire '72-73 season (his last BTW.) How significant is that? It was quite likely his LOWEST bpg season of his career. Furthermore, just 12 years later, Mark Eaton set the all-time record of 5.56.

We also KNOW that Chamberlain had a game with every block RECORDED (by SI) in which he blocked 23 shots (December 25th 1968.)

nbastats.net has Chamberlain with FOUR games of 30+ blocks, and another 15 more of 20+.

In their known career H2H totals, Chamberlain had FAR more blocks than Russell (I won't take the time to look them up now, but it was a staggering difference. Off the top of my head I know that he held a 29-8 margin in their '65 playoff series hH2H.)

I could go on, but there is simply no doubt that Chamberlain was the GOAT shot-blocker, and by a HUGE margin.

Incidently, blocking shots, and attempting to block shots, HURTS rebounding totals. Had Wilt just went for rebounds, his career rebounding totals would have been MUCH higher.

[SpanishACB]

Everyone here is making some good points. Laz is right though. No single stat or even a series of stats should be used to prove a point or points since they can easily be used or abused.

This blows my mind though.

Since that's all the old man does

edit: look above

[ninephive]

Westbrook leading the NBA at 33.3, and AD right behind at 32.5.

Neither anywhere close to historic seasons, and yet both are well ahead of the all-time record.

Just another of the MANY "mini stats" that can be thrown out today. RAPM, ORtG, DRtG, WS, WS/48, OBPM, DBPM...all WORTHLESS stats.

Reminds me of some baseball's ridiculous statistics, like how a player has batted against a certain left-handed pitcher, in a day game, after the seventh inning, with runners in scoring position, and with a two-strike count.

I completely agree with you, especially on +/-. The other night Duncan was -34 and Baynes was +14.

[Dr.J4ever]

He undoubtedly had one of the worst +/- in the history of basketball.

from an old post............ the guys that really get it jammed to them are like Bobby Jones on the old Sixers and before that on the Denver Nuggets in the ABA and then he was a Gold-Miner for a season or maybe two in the NBA too.

He was a great basketball player - not good, not just All-Star - but his mentality was pure team. Whatever it takes to win. Make your teammates better. So he's basically unknown by anybody.

But what he would do, is go in a Philly-Boston tilt... when the Sixers were up by like 12 or 15 points but it was clear that the Doc had run out of gas and Boston was making one of those tremendous Celtics rallies.

Well there'd be Larry Bird going for one of his 40 point games, in the very fury of his early days.... but instead the Celtics rally would sputter, Bird would only get 32 on that game, McHale would only get 18 instead of 25, and Big Chief would get a technical for cheap-shotting Moses Malone because he wasn't smart enough to understand it was really the Bobby Jones double team that made him look like a fool.

So Bobby's +/- would look just like dirt but yet he had come off the bench, totally disrupted the Celtics rally, and kept the Sixers lead to 4 or 6 instead of going behind by 4 or 6.

You see? He would go in the game at the exact time where he would be made to look the absolute worst ever....

But yet there was no possibility of those Sixers teams getting to the Finals all those years without Bobby Jones.
Not 1 chance in 10,000 seasons of that lineup ever getting to the Finals without #24.... and who ever heard of him?

Good example. I mean, I loved the guy, and he was universally loved in Philly. We knew what was going on when Billy C. would put him on the best offensive player on the other team. We would always anticipate that key play somewhere defensively. He would deliver, more often than not.

He was all team, and yes Philly could not have won without him. When Doc was asked to name the top 5 players he had to go against, Jones was on that list.

[Dr.J4ever]

This blows my mind though.

Since that's all the old man does

edit: look above

Yes Laz does this at times. Hopefully he gets to realize the folly of it all.

[LAZERUSS]

I completely agree with you, especially on +/-. The other night Duncan was -34 and Baynes was +14.

THIS.

Why does the NBA even bother AT ALL, with this truly RIDICULOUS stat? It has absolutely ZERO value. In fact, it is clearly more of a "-" than a "+" in the grand scheme of NBA stats.

[SpanishACB]

THIS.

Why does the NBA even bother AT ALL, with this truly RIDICULOUS stat? It has absolutely ZERO value. In fact, it is clearly more of a "-" than a "+" in the grand scheme of NBA stats.

so tell us how do you rank stats in value?

where do you rank intangibles? #10? #15 behind FG%? what's the most important stat?

please do make a list of the top 10 stats in order of value

[LAZERUSS]

Chris Paul currently has the 6th highest career PER in NBA history...and above players like Kareem, Duncan, Hakeem, Magic, Bird, Oscar, West, Garnett...and WAY ahead of Russell (96th) and Pippen (108th.)