The mainstream thinks that clutch is the reason MJ > Lebron, instead of

[3ball]

This is one of the best threads 3ball has ever made

Though I have a small bone to pick. It's not really off ball dominance so much as just his ability to score on demand. [COLOR="DarkRed"]MJ was pretty damn ball dominant in the 80's.[/COLOR]

Watch the ****ing tape

Young MJ didn't bring the ball up court, and played off-ball except the 2nd half of the 89' season and those playoffs.. otherwise, from his time under Dean Smith and rookie year, he played off-ball like any off-guard does

If you think he needed and used the same dribbling as lebron, then ur blind, or lack the basic knowledge to differentiate between off-ball scoring and ball-dominance (live dribbling). Other than the latter part of 89', MJ never play point guard or the primary ball-handler role.. I'm not saying he never dominated the ball, but there was a significant mix - he was assisted on around half his buckets, not the low-assisted rates seen of pg's and lebron.

You guys are sounding pretty ignorant about the game - you regarding MJ's game and STATMAN in post #40 about usage.. .
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[NBAGOAT]

all true but this factor gets overvalued way too much. It's like the difference between putting bron 3 and 5 on an all time list. No should be moving bron from top 5 to outside top 10 because he's too ball dominant. On the same token no one's moving Bird from his usual spots on all time lists to the greatest of all time because he's one of the goat off ball players.

[NBAGOAT]

I don't know why Bron stans say this as if it is a positive thing. Your team going to **** when you are out doesn't tell me how great you are. It just points to how everything is built around you.

Maybe if LeBron actually bought into an offensive system instead of playing his brand of ball, his teams wouldn't go in the tank when he is out.

because this is the soul of measuring how good a player is. How much better do you make your team. Yes a lot of context goes into it like how the team is built etc.

However if your team maintains their level of play or hell plays better without you, your impact should be doubted. You're truly nothing but an empty stats guy if your team gets better without you. The best metrics imo are measuring some better version of +/- since box scores only give certain information.

I would argue sometimes a player is so good it is stupid not to build a system around them. see someone like nash who could carry the suns fairly well even without amare but as soon as he went out, the team sucked. He was the engine of that team but it was also built correctly. Sometimes it's not even the system, your team is just not talented like some kg or dirk casts.

[3ball]

all true but this factor gets overvalued way too much. It's like the difference between putting bron 3 and 5 on an all time list. [COLOR="DarkRed"]No should be moving bron from top 5 to outside top 10 because he's too ball dominant[/COLOR]. On the same token no one's moving Bird from his usual spots on all time lists to the greatest of all time because he's one of the goat off ball players

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You don't understand how lebron's approach of ball-dominance over ball movement affects things... Lebron/Harden-ball prevents ball movement and teamwork, and therefore the development of teammates/teams.... Hence the need to team-hop for ready-made talent/vets

And Lebron would have zero rings without team-hopping, which leaves him with no argument over Duncan, Bird, MJ.. Even Dirk and Malone compare well when you take out the team-hopping.. And he needed the ray/kyrie shots - without BOTH the clutch help and team-hopping, he would have 0-1 rings

Furthermore, his ball-dominance prevents him from being coached - Lebron rejects coaching like he did with Walton, Lue, Blatt, and Spolestra

He's never accepted coaching and always ran lebron-ball instead - so the next Phil Jackson wasn't allowed

So to summarize, lebron's approach of ball-dominance over ball movement results in the need to team-hop for ready-made talent and prevents coaching that can yield the best teamwork..

[COLOR="DarkRed"]this factor gets overvalued way too much[/COLOR]

No it doesn't - the media doesn't talk about how lebron's ball-dominance causes low ball movement/low assist teams - they say clutch is why MJ is better

But lebron's approach of ball-dominance over ball movement results in the need to team-hop for ready-made talent and prevents coaching that can yield the best teamwork..

Ultimately, the problem is that lebron starts at forward but then becomes a 2nd point guard on the floor, which reduces ball-time and assists for the other 3 teammates compared to their play in 1-point guard lineups.. lower teammate assists results in low TEAM assist rankings.

Contrastingly, magic and ben simmons started at PG, and their 1-pg lineup allowed high team assist rankings.. but 2-pg lineups (lebron/harden-ball) give the remaining 3 teammates less time and assists compared to their play in 1-point guard lineups, which results in low TEAM assist rankings.. it's harder to win with low ball movement and low assist teams, so 3/9 happens (1/9 without ray and kyrie shots)
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[NBASTATMAN]

Again, you're graphic is shit

MJ hit more clutch shots

And his 4th quarter stats destroy lebron's

I agree MJ is the best but KOBE IS BY FAR THE WORSE.. His fourth quarter stats are garbage.. He shot less than 30 percent in pretty much all of his finals where Shaq wasnt there to carry him.

YOU KNOW ITS TRUE.

I write the truth so its easy for me to win.. Notice how I had no problem saying MJ s fourth quarters trump anyone else.. But Kobe s are really bad..

[RealSkipBayless]

Why were the Lakers bottom of the lottery without lebron but were top 4 before he got injured?

Ease of schedule.

Next.

[NBASTATMAN]

Usage measures how often a player finished a possession - so shot attempts and turnovers - that's it...

A player doesn't need to hold the ball to have high usage - just finish the possession (shoot it or turn it over)

Otoh, time of possession measures the length of time a player held the ball during the game - this is the only measure of ball-dominance.. the guys that bring the ball up and use the most live dribbles have the highest time of possession - that's point-guards - the top 25 players for time of possession were all PG's, except lebron of course
.

SO TIME OF POSSESSION IS WHAT WE SHOULD BE LOOKING AT ? CORRECT

[NBASTATMAN]

Your entire reasoning is that Lebron s time of possession is too large yet Kyrie usually led in time of possession when he played with Bron..

And Lebron is never at the top of the list.. I HAVE SHIT ON YOUR ARGUMENT..

Dont think I didnt notice you take a long time and look UP these stats and then say that 5 MINUTES was too long .. Of course its too long that SUPPORTS YOUR SHIT AGENDA.. FACTS ARE LEBRON IS NEVER AT THE TOP


https://stats.nba.com/players/touche..._OF_POSS&dir=1

https://stats.nba.com/players/touche..._OF_POSS&dir=1



https://stats.nba.com/players/touche..._OF_POSS&dir=1

https://stats.nba.com/players/touche..._OF_POSS&dir=1

https://stats.nba.com/players/touche..._OF_POSS&dir=1

https://stats.nba.com/players/touche..._OF_POSS&dir=1

[NBASTATMAN]

Ease of schedule.

Next.

You are correct they had an easy schedule when LEBRON was out ? They played NY, CLE, SUNS, CHICAGO in those 18 games. They won 6

[NBASTATMAN]

Bump

[3ball]

What do you mean 2013 HEAT won like 66 games I believe.. Wade missed like 13 games that season , Bosh missed like 8 and Lebron missed 6.. As for KAWHI his team won like 50 games without him last season.. And the season he and his team won 67 games they lost to OKC in the playoffs..

Dynasties are perennial favorites every year, not one-offs

Spurs, 90's Bulls, Warriors and Shaq/Kobe Lakers were favorites heading into most of their Finals - and those are the only dynasties in the last 25 yrs

Lebron was only the favorite in 2 of his 9 Finals

[Round Mound]

3-ball we al know MJ is the GOAT

[Vino24]

why does LeBron have more clutch shots in the playoffs then MJ?

[GimmeThat]

so we're at the point even if discount Jordan's 2 seasons with the Wizard with Lebron's first 2 seasons in the season, the rate of Lebron's diminishing ability outweighs Jordan's peak

as far as science goes, it's indicating Lebron's more skillful. note, holding on to ball and not making any mistake does not make one skillful.

that would be critical thinking ability, and hence the mainstream lacks the comprehension for Lebron to switch franchises.

[3ball]

Your entire reasoning is that Lebron s time of possession is too large yet Kyrie usually led in time of possession when he played with Bron..

And Lebron is never at the top of the list.. I HAVE SHIT ON YOUR ARGUMENT..

Dont think I didnt notice you take a long time and look UP these stats and then say that 5 MINUTES was too long .. Of course its too long that SUPPORTS YOUR SHIT AGENDA.. FACTS ARE LEBRON IS NEVER AT THE TOP


https://stats.nba.com/players/touche..._OF_POSS&dir=1

https://stats.nba.com/players/touche..._OF_POSS&dir=1



https://stats.nba.com/players/touche..._OF_POSS&dir=1

https://stats.nba.com/players/touche..._OF_POSS&dir=1

https://stats.nba.com/players/touche..._OF_POSS&dir=1

https://stats.nba.com/players/touche..._OF_POSS&dir=1

You don't get it - Lebron's abnormally-high time of possession for his position essentially creates a 2-PG lineup with Kyrie - 2 guys that have a PG-level time of possession

So teammates have less time with the ball and assists in a 2-PG lineup (2 guys dribbling a lot), than 1-PG lineups (1 guy dribbling, so teammates have more time with the ball)

Lebron's teams are 2-PG lineups because he gives the team a 2nd ball-dominator on the floor - he simply lacks the skillset to get stats like Durant/Kawhi without dominating the ball