MJ > defender and impact than Shaq (for reference purposes)

[3ball]

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On the defensive end, the ADVANTAGE a big man gives his team compared to a wing player depends on how their defensive impact compares to other centers, not wing players.

For example, Shaq's team realizes no ADVANTAGE when his defensive impact is matched or exceeded by the opposing center.. This happened more often for him than it happened for MJ/Pippen/Lebron, since they ranked at the TOP of their position defensively, while he didn't - Shaq only achieved three 2nd team all defense in 17 years (no 1st teams).. So on average, perennial 1st team defenders like MJ/Pippen/Lebron gave their team a bigger advantage in defensive impact over the opposing wing, then Shaq's advantage over the opposing center, which means they provided their team with a bigger defensive impact.

Here's an example - look at the Ray Allen vs. Jordan DPBM comparison (-1.3 to Jordan's 1.1) and then look at Ray's teammate, center Ervin Johnson vs. Shaq (2.6 to Shaq's 1.6).. [COLOR="Navy"]Now who provided the greater defensive impact to their team?????[/COLOR]. Again, Shaq's team realizes no ADVANTAGE from his defensive impact anytime it's matched or exceeded by the opposing team's center.

Btw, I used the defensive boxscore stat to measure defensive impact because the verbage "defensive box score" makes it easy to conceptualize the advantage in defensive impact that a player can provide.. [COLOR="Navy"]But ANY stat/methodology could be used to measure defensive impact[/COLOR] - the main point is that we know elite defenders provided their teams with a bigger advantage in defensive impact over their matchup, then Shaq provided over his.

And the same concept applies to ANY elite defensive player that ranks higher defensively at their position than Shaq, who was not an elite defensive center.

Now obviously, MJ, Pippen and Lebron probably DON'T provide their team with a greater defensive impact than guys like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo - those guys were elite at their position AS WELL, and likely held a greater advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pip/Lebron held over opposing wings... But not Shaq - Shaq was NOT an elite defender like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo, so he didn't have a larger advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pippen/Lebron have over opposing wings.

Shaq was lazy with poor work ethic and only made three 2nd team all defense in 17 years (no 1st teams).. Consequently, his teams were never great defensive teams - they ranked in the league's top 6 defensive teams only 1 time in 15 years thru his Miami days, and top 10 only 7 times in 15 years.

There's no guarantee that if you drafted Shaq over Jordan, your team would be better defensively - infact, it's the opposite - Shaq's teams were far worse defensively over the course of his career than Jordan's, even though Shaq had all-pro defenders Eddie Jones, Kobe, Wade and Horace Grant (in 1995 and 1996).

He also had Alonzo Mourning in 2006, who led the Heat bench (2.7 blocks in 20 minutes).. In 2001, his team had the 21st ranked defense despite being stacked defensively with all-pro defender Kobe and other solid defenders like Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Rick Fox, and Horace Grant (he started every game).



Shaq's all-defensive teammates:

Horace Grant 2
Eddie Jones 2
Kobe Bryant 5
Dwayne Wade 1
________________
4 teammates.. 10 times... 4 of 15 seasons with zero all-def teammates




MJ's all-defensive teammates:

Scottie Pippen 6
Horace Grant 1
Dennis Rodman 1
_________________
3 teammates... 8 times... 5 of 11 seasons with zero all-def teammates




Shaq's team's defensive ranks thru his Miami days:

1993 Orlando: 12*
1994 Orlando: 15
1995 Orlando: 13
1996 Orlando: 12
1997 Lakers: 8*
1998 Lakers: 11
1999 Lakers: 23
2000 Lakers: 1
2001 Lakers: 21
2002 Lakers: 7
2003 Lakers: 19
2004 Lakers: 8
2005 Miami: 6
2006 Miami: 9*
2007 Miami: 8*
_________________
11.5 average

(asterisk means no all-defensive players on team)



Jordan's team's defensive ranks as Bull

1985 Bulls: 20*
1987 Bulls: 11*
1988 Bulls: 3*
1989 Bulls: 11*
1990 Bulls: 19*
1991 Bulls: 7
1992 Bulls: 4
1993 Bulls: 7
1996 Bulls: 1
1997 Bulls: 4
1998 Bulls: 3
_______________
8.18 average



A couple caveats:

[COLOR="Navy"]1) Shaq had Alonzo Mourning on his team leading the bench in 2006 - Alonzo averaged an amazing 2.7 blocks in 20 minutes per game.

2) Shaq had Horace Grant starting every game for Lakers in 2001, with averages of 9/7, not far off his career averages of 11/8.. I'm not saying Horace was the all-pro defender he was in 1995 and 1996 alongside Shaq, but he was still solid, and added to the Lakers' roster of solid defender like Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Rick Fox, and obviously all-pro defender Kobe.

3) People say Pippen > Kobe defensively - well apparently, not relative to his competition, as evidenced by Kobe's equivalent number of 1st team all-defensive selections - when evaluating things in basketball, "relative to the competition" is the name of the game.[/COLOR]


Conclusion: Considering Shaq had all-defensive wing teammates his entire career (and frontcourt player Horace in Orlando), there's no excuse for Shaq NOT being the difference that drove teams to elite defensive status like Hakeem, Robinson, and Ewing's did... Instead, his teams were almost NEVER great defensive teams - they were top 6 in defense 1 in 15 years (thru his Miami days) and top 10 only 7 times in 15 years.. Shaq simply wasn't a great defender relative to the elite defenders at his position and vastly underachieved defensively... Furthermore, his lack of work ethic and lazy mentality permeated his teams.

Otoh, Jordan's teams were rated higher defensively his entire career, despite having less all-defensive teammates.. This shouldn't be surprising since Jordan gave his team a bigger defensive boxscore advantage at his position, than Shaq gave his team at his position - Jordan was the far superior defender relative to his peers than Shaq, and his far superior work ethic/mentality rubbed off on the entire team.
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[lilteapot]

Anyone know the recent cause of 0balls' insecurity with regards to Shaq?

[Jameerthefear]

1-9

[scandisk_]

Anyone know the recent cause of 0balls' insecurity with regards to Shaq?

He's an undercover bran stan. Not even Blitz is that dense.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Listing all-defensive teams along with defensive ratings (team) are horrible barometers to measure individual impact.

[3ball]

Listing all-defensive teams along with defensive ratings (team) are horrible barometers to measure individual impact.

You didn't read the main argument before the all-defensive team listings and DRtg rankings - the all-defense and defensive ratings are merely circumstantial evidence to support my main premise:

On average, MJ gave his team a bigger defensive boxscore advantage at his position, than Shaq gave his team at his position, and therefore had the greater defensive impact

Keep in mind - MJ didn't give his team a bigger defensive advantage over his matchup than Hakeem or Robinson did (who were ALSO the best defenders at their position), and therefore didn't provide his team with greater defensive impact than those guys, just like PG John Paxson didn't give his team a bigger defensive advantage over his matchup than say, SF Kawhi, and therefore didn't provide a bigger defensive impact than Kawhi - the logic is sound.. Read the main argument ABOVE the circumstantial evidence of DRtg and all-defensive team listings.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Your entire OP is pure conjecture. You're throwing around stats that you simply have zero grasp on. BPM? A cheap knockoff of RAPM except that it doesn't separate team from individual. Its a stat relying heavily on box score numbers which also derive from TEAM.

To top it off you list defensive teams (hey kobe) and team defensive ratings like they mean anything when gauging individual impact.

Give us a decent argument and we'll acknowledge it

[3ball]

Your entire OP is pure conjecture. You're throwing around stats that you simply have zero grasp on. BPM? A cheap knockoff of RAPM except that it doesn't separate team from individual. Its a stat relying heavily on box score numbers which also derive from TEAM.

To top it off you list defensive teams (hey kobe) and team defensive ratings like they mean anything when gauging individual impact.

Give us a decent argument and we'll acknowledge it

There's no definitive argument or methodology to gauge defensive impact, including RAPM.. And just so you know - i only used DBPM because the "box score" verbage illustrated my point clearly..

[COLOR="Navy"]But it doesn't matter what metric we use to gauge defensive impact[/COLOR] - the point being made is the same - on average, Jordan's advantage in defensive impact over his matchup at SG was bigger than Shaq's was at center, which means he had a greater defensive impact than Shaq..

This point is underscored by Shaq's far weaker defensive ranking relative to his peers, his higher number of all-pro defenders, and his lazy/inferior work ethic that permeated his teams - all of this resulted in his teams being ranked lower defensively than Jordan's for their entire careers.

Btw, I'm not looking "acknowledgement" from you guys - you're are far from authorities on anything basketball, nor would you acknowledge a good argument from me anyway.
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[navy]

Anyone know the recent cause of 0balls' insecurity with regards to Shaq?

[3ball]

It might seem like insecurity, but it was just me perusing the stats.nba.com website, and realizing "wow, old man MJ carried a far bigger load during his last 2 championships than prime Shaq did from 2000-2002." (much higher proportion of scoring... and also scoring + assists)

then I also realized that MJ's advantage in defensive impact over his matchup at SG was far bigger than Shaq's was at center, which means he gave his team a greater defensive impact than Shaq.

[COLOR="Navy"]All this made me be like[/COLOR]

[LAZERUSS]

Those Bulls teams had Piipen/Grant, both ELITE world-class defenders, and then Pippen/Rodman/Harper...all three world-class defenders. Hell, Rodman gave Sahq all he could handle.

So, MJ had FAR more help on the defensive end.

Of course, all we need to know about MJ's help... with an injury-deimated roster, they went 55-27 without him, and were one horrifically blown call (I honestly think he was paid off) away from a Finals, in which they likely would have won.

BTW, how good a defender was Shaq?

In his 26 career H2H's with Ewing,

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=onealsh01

Shaq outscored him on average by a 28.7 ppg to 21.4 ppg margin, and outshot him by a .542 to .444 margin.


How about against David Robinson?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=onealsh01

Shaq outscored him in their 23 regular season H2H's, 26.1 ppg to 18.6 ppg, and outshot him by a .536 to .470 margin.

In their 17 post-season H2H's, the margins were 24.7 ppg to 9.6 ppg, and .523 to .451.


And how about the great Hakeem?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=onealsh01

20 regular season H2H's... 22.1 ppg to 18.4 ppg, and .544 to .447.
8 post-season H2H's... 28.8 ppg to 23.0 ppg, and .556 to .465.

And how about a PEAK 2000 Shaq vs Robinson, Ewing, and Hakeem...

He held Robinson to a .457 FG% , Hakeem to a .333, and Ewing to a .324 !


BTW, perimeter defenders have nowhere near the defensive impact that elite defensive centers have.

Case closed.

[lilteapot]

MJ got crossed by someone way bigger and slower than him

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NwgNLW9ASQ

[3ball]

Those Bulls teams had Piipen/Grant, both ELITE world-class defenders, and then Pippen/Rodman...all world-class defenders.

So, MJ had FAR more help on the defensive end.

^^^ Not true - Shaq had Horace Grant in Orlando for 2 years (1995 and 1996), and those were the 2 years Horace was all-nba defender.

Then he had all-nba defender Eddie Jones, Kobe and Horace Grant in LA.. And then Wade and Alonzo in Miami.

BTW, how good a defender was Shaq?

He wasn't an elite defender at the center position - he only made three 2nd team all-defense in his 17-year career (no 1st teams) and his teams were almost never great defensive teams..

His teams were only top 6 in defense once in his entire career, and top 10 in defense 7 times in 15 years (thru his Miami days).

Otoh, Jordan WAS an elite defender at his position (the best), so he gave his team a bigger defensive boxscore advantage at his position, than Shaq gave his team at his position - as an example, look at the Ray Allen vs. Jordan DBPM comparison (-1.3 to Jordan's 1.1) and then look at Ray's teammate, C Ervin Johnson vs. Shaq (2.6 to Shaq's 1.6).. This type of discrepancy exists for nearly every team in the league.

Btw, it doesn't matter what metric we use to measure defensive impact - the point is the same - on average, Jordan's advantage in defensive impact over his matchup at SG was bigger than Shaq's was at center, which means he had a greater defensive impact than Shaq..

perimeter defenders have nowhere near the defensive impact that [COLOR="DarkRed"]elite[/COLOR] defensive centers have.

Shaq was NOT an elite defender at his position - so on average, Jordan's advantage in defensive impact over the opposing SG was bigger than Shaq's was at center, which means he had a greater defensive impact than Shaq.

Otoh, Hakeem and Robinson > defenders than MJ because those guys WERE the best defensive players at their position just like Jordan was, and their defensive boxscore advantage over other centers was likely bigger than Jordan's advantage over other SG's..

So if you replaced Jordan with Hakeem or Robinson, the Bulls would be a better defensive team.. But not Shaq - since he WASN'T an elite defender at his position like Jordan, his defensive boxscore advantage over the opposing center was less than the advantage Jordan had over the opposing SG, which means Jordan was giving his team a bigger defensive impact.

Similarly, we know SF Kawhi is > defender than PG John Paxson, because Kawhi's advantage in defensive impact over the opposing SF was bigger than Paxson's was at PG (and obviously Paxson was at a deficit most nights vs. the opposing PG's defensive impact).

Jordan's greater impact is seen by the RESULTS - Shaq's teams were far worse defensively over the course of his career than Jordan's, even when Shaq had the same kind of defensive help - Horace Grant, Eddie Jones, Kobe, Wade, and Alonzo Mourning - all-nba defenders.
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[NBAplayoffs2001]

Lakers Horace Grant was like 70% of the Bulls Horace Grant Jordan had. Unfair comparison. Heck, they bought back Grant in 2004 but at that point he was washed out. He was a good rebounder/plus defender with a good midrange system. He was better than Samaki Walker as a player and he was far more knowledgeable about the Triangle.

[3ball]

Lakers Horace Grant was like 70% of the Bulls Horace Grant Jordan had. Unfair comparison. Heck, they bought back Grant in 2004 but at that point he was washed out. He was a good rebounder/plus defender with a good midrange system. He was better than Samaki Walker as a player and he was far more knowledgeable about the Triangle.

You're forgetting that Shaq had PRIME, all-defense Horace Grant in Orlando - those were the 2 years Horace made all-defense (he only made it one year in Chicago - re-read the OP).

Then Shaq had all-defensive 1st teamer Kobe in LA.

And all-nba defender Wade in Miami... He also had Alonzo leading the Miami bench with 2.7 blocks per game in 20 minutes - it's a massive luxury to have a deluxe, HOF center like that coming off your bench.