So with Lebron being the GOAT and MJ 2nd greatest of all time, who is your 3rd?

[Nash]

We need to have that discussion even more.

Kareem? Magic? Russell?

[Gus Hemmingway]

I actually have Lebron #1, Kareem #2 and Jordan #3



It is what it is

[Manny98]

1. LeBron
2. Jordan
3. Magic
4. Duncan
5. Kareem
6. Shaq
7. Russell
8. Wilt
9. Bird
10. Hakeem
11. Erving
12. Kobe
13. KG
14. Drob
15. West

[bullettooth]

Only a few posts in and this thread is already chock full of retard.

[Kblaze8855]

On the rare occasion I can be bothered to think about it....im not seeing Lebron as a top 3 type.

Hes not one of the 3 most skilled, not one of the 3 most successful, not one of the 3 most impactful on their era....some might say he gets that one but...Russell, Wilt, Curry, Jordan, and Mikan all meant more to their leagues/the style of play.

Lebron is credited with the freedom of movement era by some but really...he just came along as the first generation of stars whos entire career had free agency, a CBA controlling contract lengths, and predictable points of freedom for young stars. Lebron drafted in 1990 would have been given the same 12 year deal Larry Johnson got or the 15 year deal Webber got and he would have taken it...because what 20 year old turns down 12 years 200 million? He didnt give players freedom. The CBA did.

He is among the greatest physical specimens ever...but no more so than Shaq, Wilt, or David Robinson and with guys like Giannis at 6'11'' 250 all muscle and still working out? Lebron is unusual because hes a 4s size with guard coordination. Giannis is too. Not as skilled....but he just turned 24. Lebrons am onster...but not the only one. How many Ralph Sampsons have there ever been? At least 7'3'' running the floor like a 3, shooting jumpers, dunking from the ft line with ease?

Lebron is a freak but I dont know if being a freak can be your main claim to a top 3 spot.

He isnt among the 3 most dominant...hes no more effective than Jordan, Kareem, Russell, or Shaq. He does have a better two way skillset than Russell but he doesnt impact outcomes at that rate. Sure its because Rusell provided an evolutionary leap in the impact of great defenders and thinkers...but it is what it is. Im not talking about why...im talking bottom lines. He isnt a more useful player to have in 2010 than Bird is in 1984 or Wilt in 66.

For all the talk of his impact on franchises....hes not a top 3 franchise player far as who you want to build around.

You build a franchise....you take Tim Duncan first. You take Bird first. Id take Jordan but for different reasons. Lebron is a talent...not a guy to make your team just.....be a reflection of himself(in a positive way) and provide stability and reliability.

Lebron is an immense talent and all time elite physical marvel with 3rd tier great skills. But....its a physical game and having insane attributes counts. So he has 3rd level skills in a A++++ body...so id give him all time second tier GOAT status.

The general Lebron level if I had to include guys I put a notch ahead and behind...just...basic tier?

No order...

Lebron
Bird
Magic
Kobe
Hakeem
Duncan
Shaq




Id put Jordan, Kareem, and Russell on the tier above that....and id hear arguments to put Wilt in either group...and an argument to add any of the following players to group 2:


Oscar
Doctor J
West
Baylor

And we will have to figure out what were doing with Durant, Moses, Curry, Wade, Barkley, Isiah, Drob, KG, Dirk, Hondo and like....9 other people who arent just factually worse or less effective than that brief list above.

You run into the problem that when yo throw out all the bullshit....look at basketball only? Once you get past like...top 3? You could probably go to #20 before its a major major talent or impact difference. We start going into how long people were great....why they were great...what did they win...

Lots of things that arent the same thing as how good anyone is at the game.

Put Lebron in 1994 on a team with equal talent to David Robinson they would win about the same games and lose in the playoffs.

None of these people are as far apart as we want to make ourselves think.

Top 30 all time greats in the same league?

Its not impossible Moses Malone, David Robinson or James Harden wins an MVP. It comes down to rules, teammates, coaching, and narratives.

Randomized all time league....Lebron wouldnt stand out any more than a lot of these guys. Lebron is a hell of a lot greater and all around better than Steph Curry. The 2015 and 16 Warriors are a worse team with him on them though.

So in the end....what is greatness?

Its abstract. Its what the person talking wants it to be.

Lebrons a monster talent. But hes never done anything to make him stand out as an automatic top 3. Too many people have too great a story to tell.

Some of you talk like hes Godzilla. Hes not the king of monsters. Hes a monster...but hes like....Rodan or King Kong. Hes in the pantheon...but hes not Zeus. He attends the meeting. He doesnt call the meeting. Hes one of those guys around the table during the Godfather listening to Don Corleone talk about making peace. He gets an invite. But its not his movie.

[ballinhun8]

Damn K shut it down.




He's a monster but he's not Godzilla. Damn. Damn. Damn.

[Manny98]

He's a monster but he's not Godzilla..

Neither is Jordan

[ballinhun8]

Neither is Jordan

If you're gonna quote me. Quote everything I wrote puta.

[FKAri]

me puta.

[AlternativeAcc.]

On the rare occasion I can be bothered to think about it....im not seeing Lebron as a top 3 type.

Hes not one of the 3 most skilled, not one of the 3 most successful, not one of the 3 most impactful on their era....some might say he gets that one but...Russell, Wilt, Curry, Jordan, and Mikan all meant more to their leagues/the style of play.

How are we defining success? Rings? Nice way to show us you're just another 'rings only' guys..

And saying he's not impactful on his era is another strawman/distraction from actually discussing impact as a player .... bu.. buu the kidz at the park play like currys therfore he better more impactz



yawn

[Prometheus]

kobe >

[Kblaze8855]

Would it matter how you defined success? Lebron wouldnt be top 3 in any of them. Not rings, winning percentage in general, accolades or records..hes not top 3 in general life success either. Magic, Jordan, and even guys you never heard of like Junior Bridgeman are more successful.....what definition could I use?

[kennethgriffen]

#1 Kareem
#2 MJ/Russell
#4 Kobe/Magic/Duncan
#7 Shaq/Bird/Wilt/Hakeem/Lebron
#12 Oscar/West/Baylor/Moses/Dr J
#17 Garnett/Dirk/Durant/Robinson/Karl/Barkley/Havlicek/Mikan/pettit
#26 Steph/Wade/Stockton/Isiah/Cousy/Iverson/Ewing


its impossible to rank everyone... theres only clear and obvious tiers associated to groups of guys

[3ball]

Neither is Jordan

Lebron's body of work isn't as great as what jordan did

And lets be babies and forget about winning for a second like lebron fans want

MJ's accomplishments are still greater..

- Better winning stats - 33.7 ppg and 6.6 apg in 91-93' PO... 27.2 and 7.2 for lebron in 12/13/16' PO
- Better losing stats - 44 ppg against goat celtics in 86', and 40 ppg combined versus 86' and 87' celts
- dominated the big men era for a decade, which led to todays perimeter player era
- Only player with 4+ fmvp (he has 6)
- 5 MVP's in 15 seasons
- Only player to hit multiple game-winners in the Finals
- 10 scoring titles
- a ridiculous 3-5 ppg more than anyone in history for RS and PO
- only player at 30/5/5 for regular season... And playoffs... and Finals
- Playoff and Finals scoring records
- 3000 points in a season
- 3-time steals champ.. 200 steals and 100 blocks in a season
- 9-time 1st team all-defense
- Only player that's top 2 in PER, VORP, BPM, WS/48 for RS and PO
- Set plus-minus record in 1996, before Curry broke it in 16'
- MJ was the best at stuff for various periods - midrange, defense, scoring, fadeaway, and more



Now if we include winning, then it gets ridiculous
.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Would it matter how you defined success? Lebron wouldnt be top 3 in any of them. Not rings, winning percentage in general, accolades or records..hes not top 3 in general life success either. Magic, Jordan, and even guys you never heard of like Junior Bridgeman are more successful.....what definition could I use?

Most of what you mention is heavily reliant on teammates/franchises/lucky circumstances

You don't consider LeBron playing 15 elite seasons in a row with maximal impact on his team, milking every last bit of potential from his teams as possible as not as successful as say... guys that played on stacked teams/had incredibly lucky circumstances?

That's not success. Individual success is much harder to gauge and actually requires some critical thinking skills.

LeBron has been the best/most impactful player almost every year of his career. Forget MVPs, accolades, rings, all that shit... WHO HAS BEEN THE BEST PLAYER THE LONGEST? Year in and year ****ing out LeBron is the best player in the league

Other guys you think had more success never had a sustained run like LeBron has... has been as elite and durable over the course of their careers like LeBron.. actually gets BETTER in the playoffs... is the most versatile and adaptable player


But you're fixated on rings? Records in the 60's against real estate agents? Good god


LeBron IS the definition of success as an individual player. He consistently gets the most out of teams with otherwise no talent/ability to win in the playoffs and does it EVERY YEAR, for over a decade straight. THAT IS SUCCESS. LeBron IS the most successful player ever as an individual.