Convince Me Garnett Is Higher Than Nowitzki AllTime

[Doranku]

The gulf on defense. Dirk has floated between poor and average, KG was consistently amongst the elite defenders. This (plus edges in rebounding, passing), more than make up for Dirk's significantly superior scoring (which was high usage and efficient).

Yep, well said. The only way I could see someone putting Dirk above KG is if you completely ignore defensive impact which is what guys like DMavs41 like to do.

[rodman91]

People who think Garnett was better than Nowitzki, should think sameway about Lebron over Kobe without a question.

[Doranku]

Garnett is better than Kobe in that case. He does everything almost better except scoring and clutch shots.

Garnett is PF version of Scottie Pippen. It makes him great player as overall but he is not the guy who can score 50 point when team needs.He is not the guy who can go to anytime when offense collapsed. He is not the guy you expect making miracles.

Also Nowiztki's accomplishments are better than Garnett's. Garnett was best or second best player in that team. Nowitzki was certainly best.

KG is certainly not a better passer/playmaker than Kobe, and prime Kobe was one of the best defensive guards in the league. The gap is much smaller defensively between Garnett and Bryant than it is for Garnett and Dirk. Kobe also has a bigger edge in scoring over Garnett than Dirk does.

Both KG and Dirk were the best players on their respective teams when they won titles, and unless you somehow want to put Dirk's blowing of a 2-0 lead in the Finals w/ HCA as a credit to him, then I don't see how that's relevant.

Also, both have an MVP. KG has a DPOY. Dirk doesn't. How exactly are his accomplishments better than KG?

[Kblaze8855]

The idea that favoring total skills means you dont understand the game is funny to me. There are, were, and always will be more casual fans who think the best scorer is the best player than people who are somehow too in love with being complete.

The Dirk/KG argument pretty much always has come down to how much you value scoring.

I see it as the exact same thing as Nique vs Pippen or maybe Drexler vs Pippen(though Drexler was closer to pippen skill by skill than this comparison probably gives him credit for).

There will always be people who want the guy who might drop 57. I want that guy too. But not at the expense of the total game. Just isnt what I look for first.

Blame the Hawk fans I came up around.

[albas89]

KG is the better all around player. Dirk is clearly better offensively but Garnett is simply devastatingly better on the other end of the floor!
Dirk might be a better leader of his team and his performance during the 2011 playoffs will go down to history, but Garnett is the type of player who doesn't really have any flaws! Put KG in the 2000s decade Mavs and he would have a serious argument over Duncan by now, having won multiple championships...

[CelticBaller]

Dirk scores

KG does everything else

[DMAVS41]

Yep, well said. The only way I could see someone putting Dirk above KG is if you completely ignore defensive impact which is what guys like DMavs41 like to do.

Not at all. It's defensive impact that makes them on the same tier. LOL

Then you would rank KG over Kobe then right? Because KG's defensive impact and rebounding destroy Kobe's.

Unfortunately for the simple minded folks, that isn't how the game works. Its not an offense vs offense and defense vs defense thing.

Being able to be the go to player for a team in the playoffs and in close games is probably the single most important aspect a player can have.

Guys like Dirk and Kobe have this...KG really doesn't...or not on their level at all.

You also can't ignore having a pf that can do what Dirk can do in terms of floor spacing and pick and roll...etc. can do for an offense.

If defense mattered as much as you claim it does in all these discussions about Dirk...then your boy Kobe would be far worse all time.

It's like the old Barkley vs KG debates. Again..same tier for me. But if defense mattered as much as you claim, then Barkley would have no argument whatsoever. And it's silly to claim that KG is easily or clearly better than Barkley. Because anyone that saw them both plays knows that to be a joke.

And thus...the game can't be broken down the neat and clean way you want it to. Its about overall impact regardless of how a player makes his impact.

How would you rank Robinson vs Dirk? Or how about Nash vs Payton? Are both Robinson and Payton just clearly better? How about Magic vs a guy like KG or Payton? How much does defense matter there?

Oh, and since the Mavs stopped playing run and gun after 04. They have been around the 9th or 10th best defensive team overall from 05 to present. Doing that with a whole host of players that are hardly defensive superstars. Somehow Dirk, being the worst defender of all time, didn't prevent his teams from doing that. But I'm sure you'll tell me that teams with Terry, Howard, Van horn, Finley, Stackhouse, Damp, and Diop should be elite defensive teams and that Dirk held them back. Right? LOL

[Carbine]

Nique wasn't this unique though. Not as an offensive player.

Dirk is the best pick and roll big in the league. If he's not actually getting the ball, he's creating gigantic driving lanes or open shots for his teammates because of the attention he receives.

...and now he finally pounds smaller guys down low. Legit post game now....couldn't say that when Matt Barnes was pushing him off the block and those little guards the Warriors were putting on him in that collapse were getting the best of him.

....and that's just part of it. He's like 7'0 or 7'1 with one of the best triple threat games in the league. Not flashy handles but gets to where he needs to get with it. Very good and willing passer, regardless of his assist per game numbers.

Garnett is probably a more ideal guy to build around because of his defense.

....but in a playoff series, I'd probably take Dirk. Whenever the have played vs. each other on the same court, I've usually come away thinking Dirk impacted the game more and got the best of Garnett.

[Doranku]

Not at all. It's defensive impact that makes them on the same tier. LOL

Then you would rank KG over Kobe then right? Because KG's defensive impact and rebounding destroy Kobe's.

Unfortunately for the simple minded folks, that isn't how the game works. Its not an offense vs offense and defense vs defense thing.

Being able to be the go to player for a team in the playoffs and in close games is probably the single most important aspect a player can have.

Guys like Dirk and Kobe have this...KG really doesn't...or not on their level at all.

You also can't ignore having a pf that can do what Dirk can do in terms of floor spacing and pick and roll...etc. can do for an offense.

If defense mattered as much as you claim it does in all these discussions about Dirk...then your boy Kobe would be far worse all time.

It's like the old Barkley vs KG debates. Again..same tier for me. But if defense mattered as much as you claim, then Barkley would have no argument whatsoever. And it's silly to claim that KG is easily or clearly better than Barkley. Because anyone that saw them both plays knows that to be a joke.

And thus...the game can't be broken down the neat and clean way you want it to. Its about overall impact regardless of how a player makes his impact.

How would you rank Robinson vs Dirk? Or how about Nash vs Payton? Are both Robinson and Payton just clearly better? How about Magic vs a guy like KG or Payton? How much does defense matter there?

Why are you acting like Kobe is as bad of a defender as Dirk is? Prime Kobe was one of (if not the best) perimeter defender in the league for 6-7 years. Also, Dirk and KG is a fair comparison because they're both 4s. Are we going to act like we're going to compare a 4 and a 2 in the same way that players of the same position are compared? Just doesn't make sense to do that.

I'd take a guy like Dirk over Robinson because, like you said, Dirk has that "it" factor where he can succeed as the go to player. Robinson, on the other hand, is the PF version of LeBron. Amazing regular season numbers with numerous choking in the playoffs.

But KG proved that he could anchor his team to a title. He did in '08, almost did it in '10, and probably would have done it in '09 if he was healthy. Him setting the tone defensively for that '08 Celtics team was unquestionably the reason they won 66 games and a title that year. He put their defense on another level, and that was JUST as important as Dirk being able to hit a couple of tough shots down the stretch.

Also, as for the PG comparisons, defense among PGs is a lot less important than it is for big men down low. Nash and Payton, to me, is a toss-up for this reason. And obviously I'd take Magic over both KG and Payton. You can't compare PG defense to big men defense. It doesn't make sense to weight them the same, especially when a guy like KG could come out on the perimeter and effectively guard PGs for a play or two.

[rodman91]

KG is certainly not a better passer/playmaker than Kobe, and prime Kobe was one of the best defensive guards in the league. The gap is much smaller defensively between Garnett and Bryant than it is for Garnett and Dirk. Kobe also has a bigger edge in scoring over Garnett than Dirk does.

Both KG and Dirk were the best players on their respective teams when they won titles, and unless you somehow want to put Dirk's blowing of a 2-0 lead in the Finals w/ HCA as a credit to him, then I don't see how that's relevant.

Also, both have an MVP. KG has a DPOY. Dirk doesn't. How exactly are his accomplishments better than KG?

Dirk has FMVP.He was the franchise player easily. Garnett was a part of big three and couldn't win FMVP. Nowitzki made Mavs contender every year while Garnett went Celtics for ring chasing. Nowitzki has better playoffs stats. (he is in extremely elite group)

Reaching finals 2 time with almost entire different teammates is better statement than reaching with somewhat fantasy roster.

KG was best player in Celtics? or Pierce? Questinable. Celtics had juggernaut roster in those years compared to teams they have been faced as well.

Lastly, KG was hell of a passer/playmaker and Wolves were using him as pointforward sometimes as well.

Peak season:
Garnett:6.0 apg
Kobe : 6.0 apg

Career: (despite he has been playing as PF/C for years)
Garnett:4.0 apg
Kobe: 4.7 apg

Garnett better rebounder by far, better defender by far, slightly less/equal playmaker.

The reason people don't consider Garnett better than Kobe, he hasn't been able to carry a team offense,clutch player, someone who lead his team to titles. Being elite/legendary at things really matters is more valuable than being best all around player.

[DMAVS41]

Why are you acting like Kobe is as bad of a defender as Dirk is? Prime Kobe was one of (if not the best) perimeter defender in the league for 6-7 years. Also, Dirk and KG is a fair comparison because they're both 4s. Are we going to act like we're going to compare a 4 and a 2 in the same way that players of the same position are compared? Just doesn't make sense to do that.

I'd take a guy like Dirk over Robinson because, like you said, Dirk has that "it" factor where he can succeed as the go to player. Robinson, on the other hand, is the PF version of LeBron. Amazing regular season numbers with numerous choking in the playoffs.

But KG proved that he could anchor his team to a title. He did in '08, almost did it in '10, and probably would have done it in '09 if he was healthy. Him setting the tone defensively for that '08 Celtics team was unquestionably the reason they won 66 games and a title that year. He put their defense on another level, and that was JUST as important as Dirk being able to hit a couple of tough shots down the stretch.

Also, as for the PG comparisons, defense among PGs is a lot less important than it is for big men down low. Nash and Payton, to me, is a toss-up for this reason. And obviously I'd take Magic over both KG and Payton. You can't compare PG defense to big men defense. It doesn't make sense to weight them the same, especially when a guy like KG could come out on the perimeter and effectively guard PGs for a play or two.

You just said it yourself. Guards don't impact the game defensively as much as bigs. So how can Kobe be more valuable than a guy like KG if defense is this important?

I don't disagree with your take on the above for the most part...and it gets to the point. It's about impact.

You don't care much about defense for Magic or Nash because it really just didn't matter that much.

Well, at the same time, Dirk is a unique player...he's not a typical PF...and his inability to play defense on the level of KG is more than made up by his elite offensive skill set and crunch time play and ability to carry a team offensively consistently in the playoffs and late in games. Something I question if KG could ever do.

And again....you act like Dirk is a much worse defender than he has been. Since the Mavs stopped playing run and gun in 04, Dirk's teams have routinely finished around the 9th or 10th best defensive teams in the league....rarely having elite defensive players. Last year was really the only time I'd say Dirk had truly great defensive help around him. And they were great defensively with Dirk on the floor. So that impact becomes somewhat marginalized.

And also...a guy like Payton was so good defensively...he did have a big impact. And if defense mattered as much as you claim it does....there would be no debate between a guy like Nash (actually one of the worst defenders ever) and him. But we all know its not cut and dry like that. Why? Because the game can't be broken down the way you want it to be.

[DMAVS41]

Dirk has FMVP.He was the franchise player easily. Garnett was a part of big three and couldn't win FMVP. Nowitzki made Mavs contender every year while Garnett went Celtics for ring chasing. Nowitzki has better playoffs stats. (he is in extremely elite group)

Reaching finals 2 time with almost entire different teammates is better statement than reaching with somewhat fantasy roster.

KG was best player in Celtics? or Pierce? Questinable. Celtics had juggernaut roster in those years compared to teams they have been faced as well.

Lastly, KG was hell of a passer/playmaker and Wolves were using him as pointforward sometimes as well.

Peak season:
Garnett:6.0 apg
Kobe : 6.0 apg

Career: (despite he has been playing as PF/C for years)
Garnett:4.0 apg
Kobe: 4.7 apg

Garnett better rebounder by far, better defender by far, slightly less/equal playmaker.

The reason people don't consider Garnett better than Kobe, he hasn't been able to carry a team offense,clutch player, someone who lead his team to titles. Being elite/legendary at things really matters is more valuable than being best all around player.

This.

Because if you broke it all down offense vs offense and defense vs defense....KG would come out ahead.

And everyone knows that shouldn't be the case.

[Kblaze8855]

And it's silly to claim that KG is easily or clearly better than Barkley. Because anyone that saw them both plays knows that to be a joke.

Barkley was arguably a better rebounder and had just as many guard skills and was right there as a passer and some would say better. Its not really the same.

Dirk vs KG is scoring vs literally every single other thing the game asks of a player. KG vs Barkley is scoring and rebounding vs all aspects of defense with similar skills those issues aside. Barkley had a more well rounded game than I think you have implied.

KG and Dirk are far more different than KG and Barkley. You could argue Dirk has a bigger edge in scoring than Barkley does but thats a whole long discussion.

Really...I cant think of a more accurate analogy to the question than Nique vs Pippen. Maybe Payton vs Iverson? I might side with Iverson there when he has no advantage anywhere that isnt an aspect of scoring.

But thats a shooting guard asked to score 30 a game vs a point...so maybe it doesnt work? I dont know. **** it...

Argument doesnt need to be had again. I just dont see how anyone claims itspeople who dont know the game who favor total players. Know nothing fans have been behind the most flashy bigtime scorer forever....

Scoring will always get the love of people who dont look deeper. I think that fact should be considered when you say such things....

[SCdac]

Before this year I had KG higher than Dirk...and still do.

Assuming both their careers ended today, why do you have KG on top?

just curious as to why you think KG is better/ranked higher right now and last year too.

[Harison]

KG is one of those guys who can flourish on any team. He has no weaknesses that need to be covered up like Dirk does with his defense.

The first team he ever played on that was a legit title contender he won a title with and walked away with the DPOY award. The Celtics probably would have won in '09, too, if KG was healthy and they were a game away (possibly a Perkins injured away) from winning in '10 as well.

Dirk is a better scorer than KG, but that's about it. KG is a better rebounder, passer/playmaker, defender (by a mile), leader, and is better at all the little stuff like setting screens, etc.

I don't really see how Dirk has an argument over KG.

Good post.

Dirk is a better scorer, and is more clutch. However offense doesnt end with scoring - passing, screens and rebounding counts too, and in those areas KG is better, making TOTAL offensive impact close.

Then we have defense.... All-time great defensive player vs rather average defender. While I understand some fans dont value defense, but its what wins championships more often than not. Dirk couldnt win for a decade with offensively stacked team (Suns deja-vu), but once he got DPOY level big-man... The rest is history.

Then we have intangibles. KG installed his culture and attitude as soon as he came to a stored franchise, whats more - he inspired two other All-star HOF'ers to play defense too. Never before '08 Ray and Pierce were know as good defenders, now they are - and they admitted its because of Garnetts influence. Dirk is a great player, but he simply doesnt have such leadership.

Bottom line: there are a lot of arguments in Garnetts favor, and not so many in Dirk's. Two-way elite big man without shortcomings vs elite one-way player. Whats more - there is NO GM who would pick Dirk over KG if they knew their careers, even Cuban would pick Garnett over Dirk.