Duncan should be considered a top 3 player of all time and WOULD BE if not for his...

[superduper]

Bron had:

Wade
Shaq
Bosh
Ray Ray
Big Z
Kyrie
GM Pat Riley

and soon to be playing with AD

Corp? Hello?

[ShawkFactory]

This is why arguing based almost solely on rings is stupid. Surely you fvcking people realize that by now.

Duncan is a unlucky bounce away from being 6-6...sure. Is he one of the 3 best players ever? Is an unlucky bounce what makes him who he is or isn

[sdot_thadon]

This is why arguing based almost solely on rings is stupid. Surely you fvcking people realize that by now.

Duncan is a unlucky bounce away from being 6-6...sure. Is he one of the 3 best players ever? Is an unlucky bounce what makes him who he is or isn’t?

exactly.

In that case if we're being honest aren't we just a lucky bounce from philly being world champs?

[ShawkFactory]

exactly.

In that case if we're being honest aren't we just a lucky bounce from philly being world champs?

Or in general...are we an injury away from team “x” winning a ring in year “y”?

When we talk about all time greats do we really mention rings?

When someone mentions Kareem as a top 5 player ever do we mention his ring count? Or just simply how unstoppable he was?

Same with Wilt.

When people on here talk about bird and magic we don’t mention rings or their “stacked” casts. We don’t mention their finals record against each other. We talk about how intelligent and beautiful they were as basketball players.

6/6, 3/9, 5/6, 5/9...whatever. It’ll all die 20 years from now when people just talk about these guys as players and the impact they made.

[Gunslinger]

Too dumb to comment at length.

The guy posted two top 10's beating 1 top 10 like it was some sort of accomplishment.



Duncan swept them boys anyways in '99 and beat them again in '03. And in '02, which may have been absolute PEAK Duncan, him and second option Tony Parker vs. peak Shaq and Kobe...


2002

Duncan: 29/17.2/4.6/1/3.2 on 42/50/77. 103 ORtg, 97 DRtg. 23.3 GS.
Parker: 13.8/2.2/5.4/1.2 on 41/16/86. 91 ORtg, 109 DRtg. 8.2 GS.

Shaq: 21.4/12.2/3.2/.6/3.0 on 44/64. 100 ORtg, 94 DRtg. 15.9 GS.
Kobe: 26.2/5.4/4.8/1/.2 on 45/23/58. 107 ORtg, 104 DRtg. 16.4 GS.

And let's not even bring up '04 and Fisher's .4 second bailout. In reality, Duncan pushed Shaq and Kobe's shit in more often than not and clearly had less help when you actually account for context like Parker and Manu not even being on the team for some of the meetings while being rookies/sophomores for others and DRob being a shell, providing much less offense. But "GOAT" help, doe.

[Prometheus]

exactly.

In that case if we're being honest aren't we just a lucky bounce from philly being world champs?

y u do dis



feelsbadman

[baudkarma]

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory]This is why arguing based almost solely on rings is stupid. Surely you fvcking people realize that by now.

Duncan is a unlucky bounce away from being 6-6...sure. Is he one of the 3 best players ever? Is an unlucky bounce what makes him who he is or isn

[ShawkFactory]

Nah. The Spurs were never going to win 2 titles in a row. If Duncans shot had dropped in 2013 then the Spurs would have lacked the energy and motivation to win in 2014. The Spurs never won two titles in a row, there's no reason to think this would have been the exception. It's actually better for Duncans legacy to lose in horrific fashion in 2013 and then a year later lead his team to a dominating victory.

Maybe...

Who the fvck knows though. That

[jbryan1984]

The greatness of the Spurs can be credited to two things other than talent. 1. Pops is simply the best basketball coach of all time. 2. They all played together for a long, long time. Duncan/Parker/Ginobili's first Championship together was 2003 and their last one was 2014. That is unheard of not only today but ever. Not even the 60's Celtics accomplished winning titles with the same guys 11 years apart.

[Gunslinger]

Nah. The Spurs were never going to win 2 titles in a row. If Duncans shot had dropped in 2013 then the Spurs would have lacked the energy and motivation to win in 2014. The Spurs never won two titles in a row, there's no reason to think this would have been the exception. It's actually better for Duncans legacy to lose in horrific fashion in 2013 and then a year later lead his team to a dominating victory.

Not true at all. We don't know what would have happened in 2014 if they had won in 2013.

And I see no argument for it being better for Duncan's legacy to have lost in 2013 since:

1.) Had he won in 2013, he would have a 5/5 100% finals win rate and 4 FMVP's, which is second most of all time.

2.) Everyone looks at his 2014 ring as more of a team accomplishment since he didn't win the FMVP media award even though you easily could have given it to him, and similar to the 2007 chip, he was the best player on that team when they needed him the most (not the finals) and carried them over the OKC hump in Game 6 of the 4th quarter and OT. If not for that, they're not even the finals that year.

[SouBeachTalents]

Nah. The Spurs were never going to win 2 titles in a row. If Duncans shot had dropped in 2013 then the Spurs would have lacked the energy and motivation to win in 2014. The Spurs never won two titles in a row, there's no reason to think this would have been the exception. It's actually better for Duncans legacy to lose in horrific fashion in 2013 and then a year later lead his team to a dominating victory.

What kinda bullshit is that. It's never better to have a missed point blank layup at the end of Game 7 of the Finals to be on your resume. To try to argue that result is better than another title/FMVP is fcking retarded

Not true at all. We don't know what would have happened in 2014 if they had won in 2013.

And I see no argument for it being better for Duncan's legacy to have lost in 2013 since:

1.) Had he won in 2013, he would have a 5/5 100% finals win rate and 4 FMVP's, which is second most of all time.

2.) Everyone looks at his 2014 ring as more of a team accomplishment since he didn't win the FMVP media award even though you easily could have given it to him, and similar to the 2007 chip, he was the best player on that team when they needed him the most (not the finals) and carried them over the OKC hump in Game 6 of the 4th quarter and OT. If not for that, they're not even the finals that year.

They had absolutely destroyed OKC every game at home that series, even with Ibaka back in Game 5. It's obviously not a gimme, but there's no reason to believe the Spurs wouldn't have won Game 7

[Gunslinger]

The greatness of the Spurs can be credited to two things other than talent. 1. Pops is simply the best basketball coach of all time. 2. They all played together for a long, long time. Duncan/Parker/Ginobili's first Championship together was 2003 and their last one was 2014. That is unheard of not only today but ever. Not even the 60's Celtics accomplished winning titles with the same guys 11 years apart.

Pop was one of the primary reasons they lost in the 2013 series in the first place. Wouldn't have even been an NBA coach had Duncan not beat the superteam Rockets for him to not be fired. Duncan made Pop, not the other way around.

Perfect example, as you just mentioned, the 2003 finals. Anyone could have been the coach and the results would have been the same as the strategy was give the ball to Duncan and get the hell out of the way. Trying to attribute credit to Pop, Parker or Manu for that ring is literally the equivalent of trying to attribute credit to Rudy Tomjanovich, Vernon Maxwell and Otis Thorpe. It was the definition of a solo act rang and 99.9% of the credit should go straight to Duncan like it does to Hakeem in 1994.

1994 Rockets Finals

Olajuwan: 27/9/3/1/4 on 50/100/86
Maxwell: 13/3/3 on 36/22/68
Thorpe: 9/11/3/1 on 52/50

2003 Spurs Finals

Duncan: 24/17/5/1/5 on 49/68
Parker: 14/3/4 on 38/43/61
Ginobili: 8/4/2/2 on 35/21/81

Game Scores

Duncan: 24.1
Hakeem: 21
Thorpe: 10.4
Parker: 7.9
Ginobili: 7.1
Maxwell: 5.5

Looking at the stats and using the eye test indicates that Duncan not only had less help than Hakeem in 2003, but that he also carried a larger load.

Combined Game Scores

Parker + Ginobili = 15.0
Maxwell + Thorpe = 15.9

And 24.1 clearly beats 21.

Olajuwan: 27/9/3/1/4 on 50/100/86
Duncan: 24/17/5/1/5 on 49/68

[Gunslinger]

What kinda bullshit is that. It's never better to have a missed point blank layup at the end of Game 7 of the Finals to be on your resume. To try to argue that result is better than another title/FMVP is fcking retarded

They had absolutely destroyed OKC every game at home that series, even with Ibaka back in Game 5. It's obviously not a gimme, but there's no reason to believe the Spurs wouldn't have won Game 7

There's no guarantee the Spurs win a Game 7 vs. OKC especially right after losing an OT Game 6 like that. All the momentum would have been in OKC's favor and the Spurs would have felt like they let one slip away similar to the 2013 finals.

[Gunslinger]

Most help all-time from start to end of his career plus Kobe and Shaq beat his ass every other year in the Playoffs so there's no way he's top 3.

Most intellectually dishonest Kobe stan on this forum next to tpols.

Never takes into account context when discussing Duncan and all his "help," but turns into a crybaby biatch when Bran stans turn the tables on him and list Andrew Bynum as all-star help in 2008, etc.



Duncan either didn't have most of those players or they weren't all-stars/all-NBA when he faced those Shaq/Kobe teams. The only real constant was DRob and this wasn't prime DRob we're talking here. The only true, "full credit" Kobe beat Duncan series where this is somewhat relevant is the 2008 one where Duncan was clearly past his prime at that point while Kobe was in his and where Kobe had a better team around him again like in those Shaq days. Kobe never beat Duncan when he had the worse team whereas Duncan beat Kobe AND Shaq multiple times with inferior teams. Them's the facts.

And also, it's not some badge of honor that Kobe wasn't good enough to lead his Lakers to the playoffs/past the first round and meet Duncan in more postseasons when Duncan actually had equal/better help. Had Kobe not been missing the playoffs and getting bounced in the first round from 2005-2007 and from 2012-2014, he would have more losses to Duncan on his resume. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

[sdot_thadon]

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory]Or in general...are we an injury away from team