NBA Finals H2H: Ilt Chamberlain vs Willis Reed

[Psileas]

Can't believe it took until page two to start, but there's the jlauber/LAZERUSS meltdown.

Sad thing is, you find all the trolls that came before, including the OP, normal...

[aj1987]

Sad thing is, you find all the trolls that came before, including the OP, normal...

Calling a loser and a choker a loser and a choker is trolling?

[LAZERUSS]

Calling a loser and a choker a loser and a choker is trolling?

This topic is not about Wade.

You know...the Wade that never even sniffed an MVP in his long and broken down career? The Wade that has more post-season CHOKE JOBS than can be listed on the entire internet.

[aj1987]

This topic is not about Wade.

You know...the Wade that never even sniffed an MVP in his long and broken down career? The Wade that has more post-season CHOKE JOBS than can be listed on the entire internet.

Still has more rings than Ilt with EVER have.

Wade > Ilt, BTW.

[Psileas]

This topic is not about Wade.

You know...the Wade that never even sniffed an MVP in his long and broken down career? The Wade that has more post-season CHOKE JOBS than can be listed on the entire internet.

Seriously, look at this crap:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../gamelog/2013/

These are his statlines when he was as old as 1968 Wilt, and this came in a championship season, so it is supposed to make us feel impressed, lol. Did this guy even have 5 playoff games in this whole postseason as good as Wilt's worst playoff games? 14/2/4, 10/3/4, 10/2/1 and it goes on and on. Compare him to Wilt? These aren't even better than lots of games of Robert Horry - and Horry has more rings than Ade.

[aj1987]

Seriously, look at this crap:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../gamelog/2013/

These are his statlines when he was as old as 1968 Wilt, and this came in a championship season, so it is supposed to make us feel impressed, lol. Did this guy even have 5 playoff games in this whole postseason as good as Wilt's worst playoff games? 14/2/4, 10/3/4, 10/2/1 and it goes on and on. Compare him to Wilt? These aren't even better than lots of games of Robert Horry - and Horry has more rings than Ade.

This dude comparing Chokerlain to Wade?

Also, you bringing up stats? Ilt "mental midget" Chokerlain played in the WEAKEST era of all time. The '60's were basically a joke era. Peak Ilt would average probably 20/12/3 on a 15 win team today.

[Psileas]

Compare them? Why the **** would I compare Wilt to someone regularly posting playoff lines of 14/2/4, 10/3/4, 10/2/1 while in his prime? Like I said, Dyane Ade is closer to the likes of Robert Horry than the GOAT.

[aj1987]

Compare them? Why the **** would I compare Wilt to someone regularly posting playoff lines of 14/2/4, 10/3/4, 10/2/1 while in his prime? Like I said, Dyane Ade is closer to the likes of Robert Horry than the GOAT.

True. Wade and Horry are clutch AF, while Ilt Chokerlain is the GOAT choker. A better player comparison would be John Starks or Anderson.

[sd3035]

Loseruss can't find the W in this thread like his boy Ilt

[GimmeThat]

on Wilt,

if we were to count Wilt's production during the regular season, with however many teams in the league and create variables as multipliers, we will probably find that yes indeed, him and Russell splitting those MVPs could be made by statistical analysis.

And if we were to look at Wilt's production during the playoff, set variable for the advancement in playoff series, as well as the compounding effect of the same team. I wouldn't be surprised if we learn that his production ends up being equal. If not less than Russell.

How this were to translate into football terms.

While conventionally, transferring the regular season variable into divisional difficulties, just as well as playoff opponents by the combining strength of schedule of the opposing team makes sense.

I wouldn't be surprised that the differentiation between one's team and the opposing team personnel makes better justification. As to the inclusion of weather as argument, I find it better off to include the precision aspect, leave out coaching as an aspect of personnel development, but the knowledge of the game.

we may attribute this to the larger audiences of football, as well as the salary structure.

And if we were to utilize this same formula onto basketball.

we may be left with a quick glimpse of the picture as to the limited differentiation by height and weight at each position in the long run, and in comparison to the salary structure, the ability to draft well also becomes an exposed subject especially if we are on the topic winning playoff games, due to limited options for substitution. In which I wonder, what has been the ideal(average) number for NFL championship teams of players on their playoff rotation where as in the NBA it has been right around 7 and/or 8. As I wonder what the salary numbers for the all star teams would look like if you combined them over the year

I attribute the first part to the lack of the same position on the field all at once at the same time, which draws parallel statement to the specialization in skills (hence big men takes longer to develop, and again, quarterbacks.)


On Wilt vs Willis Reed

I think it could be fun to bring up Wilt's playing minutes. Since Willis Reed have already averaged less minutes per game than Wilt, it probably benefited him in matching up against in this very particular case, Wilt, in the playoff. In the 2 seasons in which Wilt's won the championship, there was a reduction in his scoring output. Which leaves us to wonder, had Wilt been more prone to playing less minutes and having the same output, wouldn't his team had a better chance of winning? I wasn't around during that time to know whether or not the lack of a back up Center on his team was due to cheap ownership or his own personal agenda. But I think this does make the infamous last duel between Russell and Wilt into light as the coach decided to sit Wilt out.

I don't want to say right away that fatigue as a contribution to the lack of success of his playoff production, or even any of his off the court personal life expenditures in which I have zero knowledge of. But even if it is outrageous, I wouldn't be surprised if the big dipper felt that all it takes for him to score is a simple flip. Just as much as the phenomenon of players unable to hit their free-throws during actual game play.

[Psileas]

aj1987

Cork it, troll. You've been made to look like a fool way too often to claim any decency and seriousness.

Calling a loser and a choker a loser and a choker is trolling?

Ok, here are the known numbers in Wilt's "must-win" playoff games (elimination games), and clinching game performances (either deciding winning or losing games), of BOTH Chamberlain, and his starting opposing centers in those games.

1. Game three of a best-of-three series in the first round of the 59-60 playoffs against Syracuse, a 132-112 win. Wilt with 53 points, on 24-42 shooting, with 22 rebounds. His opposing center, Red Kerr, who was a multiple all-star in his career, had 7 points.

2. Game five of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, a 128-107 win. Chamberlain had 50 points, on 22-42 shooting, with 35 rebounds. His opposing center, Russell, had 22 points and 27 rebounds.

3. Game six of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, in a 119-117 loss. Wilt had a 26-24 game, while Russell had a 25-25 game.

4. Game three of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 60-61 playoffs , and against Syracuse, in a 106-103 loss. Chamberlain with 33 points, while his opposing center, the 7-3 Swede Halbrook, scored 6 points.

5. Game five of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 61-62 playoffs, against Syracuse, in a 121-104 win. Chamberlain had 56 points, on 22-48 shooting, with 35 rebounds. Kerr had 20 points in the loss.

6. Game six of the 61-62 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 109-99 win. Wilt with 32 points and 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points and 22 rebounds in the loss.

7. Game seven of the 61-62 ECF's, against Boston, in a 109-107 loss. Wilt with 22 points, on 7-15 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the win.

8. Game seven of the 63-64 WCF's, and against St. Louis, in a 105-95 win. Wilt with 39 points, 26 rebounds, and 10 blocks. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty, who would go on to become a multiple all-star, had 10 points in the loss.

9. Game five of the 63-64 Finals, and against Boston, in a 105-99 loss. Chamberlain with 30 points and 27 rebounds. Russell had 14 points and 26 points in the win.

10. Game four of a best-of-five series in the 64-65 first round of the playoffs against Cincinnati, a 119-112 win. Chamberlain with 38 points. His opposing center, multiple all-star (and HOFer) Wayne Embry had 7 points in the loss.

11. Game six of the 64-65 ECF's, against Boston, a 112-106 win. Chamberlain with a 30-26 game. Russell with a 22-21 game in the loss.

12. Game seven of the 64-65 ECF's, and against Boston, a 110-109 loss. Wilt with 30 points, on 12-15 shooting, with 32 rebounds. Russell had 15 points, on 7-16 shooting, with 29 rebounds in the win.

13. Game five of a best-of-seven series, in the 65-66 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 120-112 loss. Wilt had 46 points, on 19-34 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 18 points and 31 rebounds in the win.

14. Game four of a best-of-five series, in the first round of the 66-67 playoffs, and against Cincinnati, a 112-94 win. Wilt with 18 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 27 rebounds and 9 assists. His opposing center, Connie Dierking, had 8 points, on 4-14 shooting, with 4 rebounds in the loss.

15. Game five of the 66-67 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 140-116 win. Chamberlain with 29 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 36 rebounds, 13 assists, and 7 blocks. Russell had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 21 rebounds, and 7 assists in the loss.

16. Game six of the 66-67 Finals, and against San Francisco, in a 125-122 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 8-13 shooting, with 23 rebounds. His oppsoing center, HOFer Nate Thurmond, had 12 points, on 4-13 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the loss.

17. Game six of the first round of the 67-68 playoffs, against NY, in a 113-97 win. Wilt had 25 points, and 27 rebounds. His opposing center, HOFer Walt Bellamy, had 19 points in the loss.

18. Game seven of the 67-68 ECF's, against Boston, in a 100-96 loss. Wilt with 14 points, on 4-9 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 12 points and 26 rebounds in the win.

19. Game six of the first round of the 68-69 playoffs, against San Francisco, in a 118-78 win. Wilt with 11 points. Thurmond had 8 points in the loss.

20. Game four of the 68-69 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Chamberlain with 16 points. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty had 30 points in the loss.

21. Game seven of the 68-69 Finals, against Boston, in a 108-106 loss. Chamberlain had 18 points, on 7-8 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Russell had 6 points, on 2-7 shooting, with 21 rebounds in the win.

22. Game five of a best-of-seven series (the Lakers were down 3-1 going into the game) in the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, and against Phoenix, a 138-121 win. Wilt with 36 points and 14 rebounds. His opposing center, Neal Walk, had 18 points in the loss.

23. Game six of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, in a 104-93 win. Wilt with 12 points. Jim Fox started that game for Phoenix, and had 13 points in the loss.

24. Game seven of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, and in a 129-94 win, which capped a 4-3 series win after falling behind 3-1 in the series. Wilt with 30 points, 27 rebounds, and 11 blocks. Fox had 7 points in the loss.

25. Game four of the 69-70 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Wilt with 11 points. Bellamy had 19 points in the loss.

26. Game six of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 135-113 win. Wilt with 45 points, on 20-27 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Nate Bowman had 18 points, on 9-15 shooting, with 8 rebounds in the loss.

27. Game seven of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 113-99 loss. Wilt with 21 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 24 rebounds. HOFer Willis Reed had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 3 rebounds in the win.

28. Game seven of the first round of the 70-71 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 109-98 win. Wilt with 25 points and 18 rebounds. 7-0 Tom Boerwinkle had 4 points for the Bulls in the loss.

29. Game five of the 70-71 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 116-94 loss. Wilt had 23 points, on 10-21 shooting, with 12 rebounds, 6 blocks (5 of them on Alcindor/Kareem.) Kareem had 20 points, on 7-23 shooting, with 15 rebounds, and 3 blocks in the win. Incidently, Wilt received a standing ovation when he left the game late...and the game was played in Milwaukee.

30. Game four of the 71-72 first round of the playoffs, against Chicago, in a 108-97 sweeping win. Wilt had 8 points and 31 rebounds. Clifford Ray had 20 points in the loss.

31. Game six of the 71-72 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 104-100 win. Chamberlain with 20 points, on 8-12 shooting, with 24 rebounds, and 9 blocks (six against Kareem.) Kareem had 37 points, on 16-37 shooting, with 25 rebounds in the loss.

32. Game five of the 71-72 Finals, against NY, in a 114-100 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds, and 9 blocks. HOFer Jerry Lucas had 14 points, on 5-14 shooting, with 9 rebounds in the loss.

33. Game seven of the first round of the 72-73 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 95-92 win. Wilt with 21 points and 28 rebounds. His opposing center, Clifford Ray, had 4 points.

34. Game five of the 72-73 WCF's, and against Golden St., in a 128-118 win. Wilt with 5 points. Thurmond had 9 points in the loss.

35. Game five of the 72-73 Finals, against NY, in a 102-93 loss. Wilt with 23 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Willis Reed had 18 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 12 rebounds.

That was it. 35 "must-win" elimination and/or clinching post-season games.

Calling a loser and a choker a loser and a choker is trolling?

Wilt's known game winning baskets (incomplete list)

1. Nov 10, 1959 vs New York (and 3 GW blocked shots in a row)
2. Nov 28, 1959 @ New York
3. Mar 4, 1961 vs Syracuse (FT's)
4. Feb 19, 1963 vs L.A Lakers
5. Dec 8, 1963 @ L.A Lakers (FT's)
6. Dec 28, 1963 @ Baltimore (interestingly, just one game later, he sank the OT basket)
7. Feb 23, 1964 vs L.A Lakers (he played injured and scored his team's last 5 points)
8. Mar 5, 1965 @ Cincinnati (scored 16 in 4th Q, blocked 2 shots in the last 18'', he scored the OT basket 3 games later)
9. Mar 24, 1965 @ Cincinnati (Playoffs. Hits winning FT's, while playing in the last games with a stomach ailment)
10. Dec 29, 1965 @ Detroit (FT)
11. Apr 17, 1970 vs Atlanta (Playoffs. Hits winning FT's in the end of OT).

Calling a loser and a choker a loser and a choker is trolling?

http://www.si.com/vault/1991/10/16/1...sports-history

Calling a loser and a choker a loser and a choker is trolling?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Np29MW_XN8

Calling a loser and a choker a loser and a choker is trolling?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9nGQ27zlfE

[LAZERUSS]

Seriously, look at this crap:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../gamelog/2013/

These are his statlines when he was as old as 1968 Wilt, and this came in a championship season, so it is supposed to make us feel impressed, lol. Did this guy even have 5 playoff games in this whole postseason as good as Wilt's worst playoff games? 14/2/4, 10/3/4, 10/2/1 and it goes on and on. Compare him to Wilt? These aren't even better than lots of games of Robert Horry - and Horry has more rings than Ade.

We can safely remove Wade from ANY GOAT discussions.

BTW, has there ever been a more SUSPICIOUS Finals than that in 2006?

Wade was averaging 9.0 FTAs per game in his first 17 playoff games that post-season...and then, SUDDENLY, in his six Finals games... 16.1 FTA??!!

I swear I saw him walking arm-in-arm with referee "Dangerous" Danny Davis after that game six, and a big wad of cash fell out of Davis's pocket as they exited the floor.

[aj1987]

Cork it, troll. You've been made to look like a fool way too often to claim any decency and seriousness.

Stay mad, bitch boy. Chokerlain is not even close to being on Wade's level and he played in a ultra weak era.

Wilt's known game winning baskets (incomplete list)

1. Nov 10, 1959 vs New York (and 3 GW blocked shots in a row)
2. Nov 28, 1959 @ New York
3. Mar 4, 1961 vs Syracuse (FT's)
4. Feb 19, 1963 vs L.A Lakers
5. Dec 8, 1963 @ L.A Lakers (FT's)
6. Dec 28, 1963 @ Baltimore (interestingly, just one game later, he sank the OT basket)
7. Feb 23, 1964 vs L.A Lakers (he played injured and scored his team's last 5 points)
8. Mar 5, 1965 @ Cincinnati (scored 16 in 4th Q, blocked 2 shots in the last 18'', he scored the OT basket 3 games later)
9. Mar 24, 1965 @ Cincinnati (Playoffs. Hits winning FT's, while playing in the last games with a stomach ailment)
10. Dec 29, 1965 @ Detroit (FT)
11. Apr 17, 1970 vs Atlanta (Playoffs. Hits winning FT's in the end of OT).

Only two in the PO's, huh?


#9, Choked his FT's and got bailed out.
#10, Choked his FT's and got bailed out.
#11, Wouldn't have required the OT, if Chokerlain hit his FT's in regulation. Got bailed out again.

Don't even feel like doing the rest. Can you back any of them, btw?

Still hilarious that he has only two in the PO's.

[Psileas]

You know your humiliation has entered a new dimension when you have to make up stories about Wilt doing things like missing FT's that he actually made. Ciao, loser.

[RidonKs]

awesome post psileas

just reading through that once over should convince anybody honest that wilt wasn't a choker

no more than lebron anyway