NBA Finals H2H: Ilt Chamberlain vs Willis Reed

[Deuce Bigalow]

In the two Finals match ups in 1970 and 1973 that both players played in Reed took home the championship and the finals MVP both times. Could I have some analysis on how each played individually?

[SouBeachTalents]

I made a thread about this game previously, but here's highlights of their Game 7 of the 1970 Finals

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q3ULtuljME

[AirFederer]

Expect the Wilt stans to stay away from this thread like Wilt from the basket in Finals

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

ILt was SHOOK when Reed ventured back from the gate. I remember clearly with my own eyes I seen it. Nikka ain't want NONE nadda, he wanted OUT

[AirFederer]

Wilt (all "365 pounds of him ) when he saw Reed coming back.

[kennethgriffin]

i like how in the title it says Ilt instead of Wilt


since he routinely lacked the "W"



but at the same time. he did routinely wilt under pressure


so i can live with either

[Asukal]

Ilt?

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Ilt?

ILt ChamberofLs

[AirFederer]

Ilt

[Asukal]

Saw this in the net..



He loved losing very much.

[SouBeachTalents]

How many of them had FOUR complete playoffs with 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg, 35.0 ppg, and 37 ppg? How many of them had 30+ ppg and 30+ rpg post-season series? How many of them had EIGHT entire playoff runs of 24.7+ rpg? How many of them played in 29 post-season series, and outrebounded their opposing starting center in all 29 of them (and some by unfathomable margins)? How many of them had SIX playoff series of 28+ ppg and 23 rpg? How many of them had FOUR playoff series in which they scored 37 ppg, 37 ppg, 39 ppg and 39 ppg? How many of them had EIGHT playoff runs of 20+ ppg and 20+ rpg? How many of them had THIRTEEN post-seasons in which they averaged 20+ rpg? How many of them had FOUR 50+ point games? How many of them had THREE 50+ point games in "elimination" games? And how many of them had FIVE 40+ point games in "elimination" games, including a 45 point game in a Finals? How many of them played in 23 "elimination" games, and averaged 31.1 ppg, and shot .540 from the field in them?

And, as I said before, Chamberlain faced RUSSELL EIGHT times, and all but one were either in the first, or the second round. Why is that important? Because MJ's scoring and efficiecny took a nose-dive against the "Bad Boys" in his FOUR straight playoff series against them. Shaq's scoring and efficiency took a huge hit when he battled the Spurs in his FIVE playoff series between '99 and '04. And a peak Kareem's dropped dramatically in his FIVE playoff series against an old Wilt and an aging Thurmond. STEEP decline. Or how about Kobe in his Finals? His FG%'s dropped like the Zeppelin, ...and as bad they were in those series, they were FAR worse in the biggest games of them.

And how many of them shredded their knee, had major surgery, came back way ahead of schedule, and then averaged 12.7 ppg, 6.0 rpg, and shot .500 in their regular season games, post-surgery...and then went on to have a seven game Finals of 23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and on a .625 eFG%, which included a "must win" game six of 45 points, on 20-27 FG/FGA, with 27 rebounds? How many other players basically raised their level of play in a Finals by over 10 ppg, 18 rpg, and 12% from the field?

How many of them ended a Dynasty's eight year title run, and in a resounding fashion...all while absolutely crushing the architect? How many of them ended what was supposed to be a certain dynasty for years to come, before it ever got off the ground?

And keep in mind that Wilt's TEAM's lost to the eventual champion in TEN of his 13 post-seasons. At least he had an excuse when they were losing to the Celtics SEVEN times, or the '70 Knicks, or the '71 Bucks. How about Shaq getting swept six times, and playing poorly against Ostertag in a 4-1 series blowout loss? Or Bird losing with HCA SEVEN times, including being swept by an under-dog Bucks team? Or the great Hakeem losing in the first round EIGHT times, and to opposing centers like Eaton, Thompson, AC Green, and Oliver Miller?

Or had Wilt played in an era with pure crap teams making the playoffs, his 62-63 Warriors probably would have qualified in a season in which Chamberlain averaged 44.8 ppg on .528 shooting. Oh, and give Wilt a consistent 3-4 playoff rounds every season, much as the other HOF players would have later on, and he likely would have scored much more.

I have said it before, but had Wilt played in the Western Conference in his entire seven "scoring seasons", and he likely would hold every playoff scoring record. Why? Because Russell used to kill the Lakers in those years, and as great as Russell was against them, Chamberlain was FAR more dominant. From '62 thru '66, when Russell put up his best post-season series of his career against LA...Chamberlain had entire seasons, covering between nine and 12 games, in which he averaged 51.6 ppg, 48.6 ppg, 44.3 ppg, 29.9 ppg, and 40.8 ppg against the Lakers. Hell, Wilt had SIX games of 60+ against LA, including TWO of 70+ in that span. As it was, in his one post-season in the Western Conference, he annihilated the Hawks with a seven game series of 39 ppg, 23 rpg, and on a .559 FG% (in a post-season NBA that averaged 106 ppg on a .420 eFG%.)

And in the decade of the 60's, Chamberlain faced Russell and Thurmond (just ask KAJ about Nate), TEN times in his 18 playoff series...and he STILL averaged 26.4 ppg in all eighteen series. Take those two out of it, and his he would have scored 31 ppg in that span.

Nor do they understand the other factors, either. When Hakeem was getting bounced from the first round, it was often by some scrub center. When Chamberlain was getting eliminated in the post-season, it was by HOF-laden teams like the Celtic dynasty, or both the '70 and (especially) the '73 Knicks, or what most "experts" believed to be, at the time, the next great dynasty in the '71 Bucks...and most all of them had a HOF center.

And they only look at Wilt's numbers, and never mention Chamberlain holding Johnny Kerr to FG%'s of .376 and .296; or outshooting Russell by margins of .468 to .399, 500 to .397, .517 to .386, .555 to .447, and .556 to .358; or outshooting Thurmond by margins of .500 to .392, .560 to .343, and .611 to .373; or outshooting Bellamy by a .584 to .421 margin (in a season in which Bellamy shot .541); or holding a peak KAJ to two series of .481 and .457 (in years in which Kareem shot .577 and .574 against the NBA.)

Or that Wilt played in 29 post-season series, and was never outrebounded by an opposing starting center in any of them; which included outrebounding Lucas by a 23.2 to 9.8 margin; Thurmond by margins of 23.5 to 19.5 rpg, and 23.6 to 17.2 rpg; Reed by margins of 18.6 to 9.2 rpg, and 24.1 to 10.5 rpg; Bellamy by margins of 22.0 to 15.8 rpg, and 24.2 to 16.0 rpg; or the great Russell by margins of 30.2 to 25.0; 31.4 to 25.3, and 32.0 to 23.4 rpg.

And, only the "Wilt-bashers" would consider a "scoring Wilt", who averaged 32.8 ppg, 26.7 rpg, and shot .505 (in post-season leagues that shot .420 on average), as a "declining" Wilt. Oh, and in those 52 games, he faced RUSSELL in 30 of them. Again, had MJ faced the "Bad Boys' in 60% of his playoff games; or Shaq faced the Spurs in 60% of his playoff games; or Kareem faced Nate and Wilt in 60% of his playoff games...and their overall numbers would have looked far worse.

A "scoring" Wilt who put up 11 40+ point games in those 52 games, five of which came against Russell. Oh, and included were FOUR 50+ point games (three of which were in "elimination games", including one against Russell.)

Or a Chamberlain, in the first half of his career, averaged 30.4 ppg, 27.0 rpg, 4.5 apg, and shot .515 from the field (again, in post-seasons in which the league shot around .425), covering 67 games (35 of which came against Russell, and six of which were against Thurmond)...COMBINED.

Think about that...in his first 67 playoff games, Wilt basically averaged a 30-27-5 .515 FG% game. Now, give me the list of the all-time greats who even had ONE playoff SERIES with those numbers. Hell, you would be hard-pressed to find another "GOAT" with a SINGLE playoff GAME with that stat-line, much less someone who faced two of the greatest defensive centers of all-time in over 60% of those games.

Carried two teams that went 68-13 and 69-13 to two titles. Anchored two other 60+ win teams. Carried another team, that had gone 40-40 the year before, to the best record in the league, all while leading the leading in scoring, rebounding, and FG%.

Lost five game seven's to the eventual champion, including FOUR by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points, and was the best player on the floor in three of them, and the best center on the floor in all four of them.

Averaged 37 ppg in the ONE series in which his team lost in the post-season that did not go on to win a championship...and his teammates collectively shot .332 in that series.

Was traded away by one team that would go 7-36 without him, to a team that had gone 34-46 the year before. He then single-handedly carried that 40-40 team to a game seven, one point loss, against the 62-18 HOF-laden Celtics...in a series in which he completely trashed Russell, and averaged 30 ppg, 31 rpg, and shot .555 from the field in.

Averaged 33 ppg in his post-seasons in his "scoring prime". And in those 52 games, 30 of which were against Russell, he had 11 games of 40+ points (five of which were in elimination games, and four of 50+, (three of which came in "must-win" games.)

Only played in one Final in his scoring season, and put up a 29 ppg, 28 rpg, .517 series against Russell. Overall, he badly outscored his opposing starting centers in his six Finals, crushed them on the glass in those six Finals, and outshot them by staggering FG%'s in every series.

And in his 23 post-season "elimination games" this "choker" put up averages of 31.1 ppg, 26.0 rpg, adnd shot .540 from the floor (or well over 10% higher than the post-season league eFG% in that same span.) Aside from Lebron, at 31.9 ppg, and MJ, at 31.3 ppg, he was the highest "elimination game" scorer in post-season history. And he was certainly more dominant than either, as well.

Had a staggering 7-2 margin over another "GOAT", Russell, in First-Team All-NBA selections, in their ten seasons in the league together, and was voted that by the sportswriters who actually watched them play AT THE TIME, (and not some nobody journalist that no one ever heard of then, or since)... (and who, to my knowledge, Chamberlain himself, never mentioned in any of his books.)

Most dominant post-season post-season run in NBA history in his "scoring seasons"...averaged 30.4 ppg, 27.0 rpg, 4.5 apg, likely 8+ bpg, and shot .515 from the field (in post-seasons that shot about .420 in that same span)...in his 67 playoff games...COMBINED. All while dramatically outscoring his HOF peers, holding those same HOF centers to perhaps as much as 10% below their normal regular season FG%'s, and just crushing them all on the glass.

[AirFederer]

#1 - regular season stats head to head vs. playoff stats. Russell's numbers all go up, Wilt's all go down...that is huge.

#2 - Wilt's record in the conference finals and beyond is 48-44, Russell's is 90-53. and Elimination games, Wilt 10-11, Russell 16-2.

#3 - A quote from Bill Bradley - "Wilt played the game as if he had to prove himself to someone who had never seen basketball. He pointed to his statistical achievements as specific measurements of his basketball ability, and they were; but to someone who knows basketball they are, if not irrelevant certainly nonessential. The point of the game is not how the individual does, but rather the team wins."


From Bill Bradley

"I have the impression that Wilt might have been more secure with losing. In defeat, after carefully covering himself with allusions to his accomplishments, he could be magnanimous."


From Butch Van Breda Kolf (who coached Wilt)

"The difference between Wilt and Russell was this: Russell would ask, what do I need to do to make my team mates better? Then he'd do it. Wilt honestly thought the best way for his team to win was for him to be in the best possible setting. He'd ask, What's the best situation for me?"

From Jerry Lucas

"Wilt was too consumed with records: being the first to lead the league in assists, or to set a record for field goal percentage. He'd accomplish one goal, then go on to another. Russell would only ask one question: "What can I do to make us win"

Jerry West summing it up best

"I don't want to rap Wilt because I believe only Russell was better, and I really respect what Wilt did. But I have to say, he wouldn't adjust to you, you had to adjust to him."

[riseagainst]

Ilt



can't believe nobody has thought of this before.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Ilt

Azuras, get that ass here, boy.

[Asukal]

ILt