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Re: Lebron's style LOOKS more like a PG, but everything else says MJ was better passer
Originally Posted by 3ball
Excuses
Empty stats.
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for your health
Re: Lebron's style LOOKS more like a PG, but everything else says MJ was better passer
You literally just answered your own question. The pace was higher during Jordan's era, which inflated players' assist totals as well as their scoring. That right there nullifies your statistical evidence.
Less spacing means defenders are packed in tighter, yes. It also means that passes are made over shorter distances (requiring less velocity on the ball) and that teammates are clustered nearer to one another (requiring less peripheral vision). Jordan was very good at feeding the post and hitting cutters, but he didn't regularly make the cross-court passes and kick-outs that LeBron makes, which are arguably more difficult.
But that's just a quick example of how to rationalize. The fact is, assist totals were inflated in the '80s and '90s vs. today, which is all that matters for the sake of this argument.
And let me just remind you for the hundredth time, I am a huge Jordan fan, and think he is > LeBron by a wide margin. That doesn't mean he was better at everything, and he wasn't a better passer.
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... on a leash
Re: Lebron's style LOOKS more like a PG, but everything else says MJ was better passer
Originally Posted by oarabbus
Come on son. Jordan was a FAR better offball rebounder than Rodman, and a superior left-side-of-the-ball passer to Magic. Doesn't even need to be said
MJ's off-ball passing was majestic.
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Serious playground baller
Re: Lebron's style LOOKS more like a PG, but everything else says MJ was better passer
Originally Posted by ArbitraryWater
MJ's off-ball passing was majestic.
Dont forget his off-ball ball handling
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Re: Lebron's style LOOKS more like a PG, but everything else says MJ was better passer
Originally Posted by Prometheus
You literally just answered your own question. The pace was higher during Jordan's era, which inflated players' assist totals as well as their scoring. That right there nullifies your statistical evidence.
You might want to check your facts. The Bulls played at a negligibly higher pace during the years in question ('89-'93). Something like 92-96 pace versus Lebron's typical 90-93 pace.
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NBA Legend and Hall of Famer
Re: Lebron's style LOOKS more like a PG, but everything else says MJ was better passer
Originally Posted by Prometheus
Less spacing means defenders are packed in tighter, yes... but MJ didn't regularly make the cross-court passes and kick-outs that LeBron makes, which are arguably more difficult.
Yes he did - ALL players make cross-court (skip) passes - that's nothing.. You just don't have a good grasp of what constitutes a difficult basketball play.
They teach you to make skip passes in junior high.. It's a simple drill.. Literally.. Otoh, there are no drills for threading needles in traffic.. Recipients of skip passes are always open for longer than players who are in congested traffic - you can eyeball a skip-pass recipient forever before making the pass.
And with spacing, recipients of all passes are easier to see.. But most importantly, all passes are simply easier TO MAKE with wider passing lanes - wider passing lanes are a bigger factor than anything else.
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Last edited by 3ball; 04-13-2015 at 04:50 PM.
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3-time NBA All-Star
Re: Lebron's style LOOKS more like a PG, but everything else says MJ was better passer
Originally Posted by 3ball
Yes he did - ALL players make cross-court (skip) passes - that's nothing.. You just don't have a good grasp of what constitutes a difficult basketball play.
They teach you to make skip passes in junior high.. It's a simple drill.. Literally.. Otoh, there are no drills for threading needles in traffic.. Recipients of skip passes are always open for longer than players who are in congested traffic - you can eyeball the recipient forever before making the pass.
With spacing, recipients of ALL passes are easier to see.. But most importantly, all passes are easier to make with wider passing lanes - wider passing lanes are a bigger factor than anything else.
That's what Jordan's wife said too
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NBA lottery pick
Re: Lebron's style LOOKS more like a PG, but everything else says MJ was better passer
When it comes to perimeter players who are freak athletes, great scorers, great passers, and great defenders in one, this is my Mt. Rushmore:
MJ
Bron
Kobe
Wade
These guys can dominate in all facets BUT they do it different ways. Of this bunch, I think Bron is the best passer. And ITS BECAUSE of his mentality. He looks to pass first WHILE also dominating scoring in the flow of the game. MJ looked to SCORE FIRST while also being a great passer himself. So even though the assist numbers are similar, Bron's MENTALITY is the difference. If they played in the same backcourt, THERE IS NO QUESTION who the PG would be. So when it comes to passing, give me Bron over MJ.
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truth serum
Re: Lebron's style LOOKS more like a PG, but everything else says MJ was better passer
Originally Posted by Heavincent
Hold up, this is an actual term that you use? I thought people were just joking.
You think it's a game lol. MJ's game is so out there he needed to invent new terms just to describe his game. I'm curious what do you guys think of his off ball dribbling?
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for your health
Re: Lebron's style LOOKS more like a PG, but everything else says MJ was better passer
Originally Posted by OldSchoolBBall
You might want to check your facts. The Bulls played at a negligibly higher pace during the years in question ('89-'93). Something like 92-96 pace versus Lebron's typical 90-93 pace.
Actually that was 3ball's explanation. Now we may want to press for another reason as to why players were averaging higher APG back then, since apparently it wasn't about pace...
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Re: Lebron's style LOOKS more like a PG, but everything else says MJ was better passer
Originally Posted by L.A.Showtime
Of course MJ was better. 3ball with another "duh" thread. He puts more work into obvious threads than anybody.
Nice screen name.
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Devin Booker MVP
Re: Lebron's style LOOKS more like a PG, but everything else says MJ was better passer
Originally Posted by pauk
Why go after just Lebron, i mean with that logic why not go ahead and say he possessed better passing ability than say Magic aswell including everybody else who were better than Jordan at that... or excuse me not better... nobody could have possibly been better than Jordan at anything.... especially that damned Lebron, argh, hate that guy!
Why not create a thread where you explain how he is a better rebounder than Rodman aswell or something.... You are creative, think of something...
Is it to much? I dont think so... you already said Jordan is as good of a shooter as Reggie Miller, Ray Allen and such so i mean you might aswell step your game up....
Dude don't give him ideas
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NBA Legend and Hall of Famer
Re: Lebron's style LOOKS more like a PG, but everything else says MJ was better passer
Originally Posted by Prometheus
Actually that was 3ball's explanation. Now we may want to press for another reason as to why players were averaging higher APG back then, since apparently it wasn't about pace...
no, that's why they were higher.. because of pace.
oldschoolbball just pointed out that the Bulls happened to play at the league's slowest pace every year, so the pace Jordan himself played wasn't any slower than today.. but the league as a whole still played at a faster pace, hence the higher assists.
but in addition to pace, previous eras played a superior brand of basketball - they weren't just setting up for a 3-pointer every play - they sought a much wider range of shot-types, which diversified the play much more.. they're view wasn't restricted by 3-pointers, so the play was much more instinctive.. this superior brand of play breeded superior passers.
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Last edited by 3ball; 04-14-2015 at 02:49 AM.
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NBA Legend
Re: Lebron's style LOOKS more like a PG, but everything else says MJ was better passer
Factually, Lebron is a better passer whether your criteria is passing skills or assist averages.... its really that simple 3ball...
It doesnt mean Jordan couldnt one season average the same or even more assists.... nor does it mean Jordan had much worse passing skills or something...
It just means Lebron was more consistent, piled up more assists... and it means he displayed better/more passing skills....
Jordan wasnt better than everybody at everything.... you have to accept that.
Last edited by pauk; 04-14-2015 at 03:08 AM.
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NBA Legend and Hall of Famer
Re: Lebron's style LOOKS more like a PG, but everything else says MJ was better passer
Originally Posted by pauk
It doesnt mean Jordan couldnt one season average the same or even more assists....
It's not just one season - it's for lebron's entire career thus far - MJ averages more assists in both the playoffs and Finals thru age 30.
[COLOR="red"]Also, the smaller passing lanes of no-spacing environments required greater passing skill than today's wide open spacing.. This is another reason today's passers are overrated - and not only does the spacing make passing easier, but the NBA changed the rules specifically to enhance ball movement, including drive-and-kicks.
[/COLOR]
Originally Posted by pauk
It doesnt mean Jordan couldnt one season average the same or even more assists....
Also, Jordan's stats at point guard over the 24 games (31/9/11/51) were so ridiculous and so much better than Lebron has ever done, that they can't be explained away by statistical variance - those stats simply prove Jordan was the better passing point guard.. And we already know he was the better off-ball passer, which are passes made without using a point-guard-style, live dribble (shown in the OP GIF).
Of course, most people have a shallow view of the game, and in their mind, they only think of good passing coming from someone with a live-dribble, like a point guard.. This is the main reason Lebron's passing gets overrated.. But this is simple delusions - his assist averages are FAR from elite for a ball-dominator - elite would be guys like Magic, Nash, CP3, Isiah, Stockton, etc., who literally average twice the assists of Lebron.
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Last edited by 3ball; 04-14-2015 at 03:55 AM.
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