Points are points right? If the ball ends up in the basket does it matter how?

[Ben Simmons 25]

You just broke down your entire point right there.

Harden's ability to blow by people is the primary facilitator to his dominance. He breaks down a team's defensive structure almost immediately by constantly being able to get past his initial defender...the big/wing is forced to help, leaving either and open roll man or an open jumpshot. Or individually, he's just gonna get any shot he wants. An inability to "masterfully exploit rules" isn't changing any of that.

Quickness is probably the biggest game-breaking talent in basketball, of which Harden has in droves...combined with unseemly strength for his size, top 2 ballhandling skills in the game, and elite body control. No rule changes are impacting that skillset. Sorry bud.

They made the "Harden Rule" two years ago and he won the MVP the following season, He's now averaging the most since MJ. Rule changes ain't stop sh*t.

I didn't contradict my own argument for nothing, tool.

He would still be elite at blowing by people and as such he would still be an All-Star. He'd also still be a good shooter.

But without the ability to carry the ball backwards on step backs and without all of the absolutely ridiculous fouls that he draws that he personally initiated contact on, he wouldn't be an MVP candidate. Those bullshit exploits are what put him over the top.

There is no self-contradiction in that argument.

[Manny98]

That might be the ugliest play I've seen in my entire life reminds me of the kids that you'd play with on 2k that ballhog and dribble out the entire shot clock whilst his teammates are just standing in the corner watching him dribble away

[BigShotBob]

James Harden has more free throws made than field goals

[305Baller]

the thing is this: 3 points trumps 2 points.
if you can hit the three then its the way to go. especially at a fast pace


ball movement is beautiful. the harlem globetrotters made a career out if it but it wastes time and efficiency.

The Warriors are the standard. Houston's gimmicky but effective.

[305Baller]

Another quality post from Blaze. Thanks.

[305Baller]

edited

[Kblaze8855]

I was about to make a new topic when I remembered this.

we all noticed all these massive point explosions from stars who seem to just be given complete control. Mitchell, for example, scored or assisted on what I think was 101 points in a game. I saw somebody from the Mavericks quoted saying their analytics showed that every play that wasn’t Luka either attempting to score or drawing a double team to kick out for three was a waste of possession and that’s why he has complete control. The stats suggest it’s simply better to let him do whatever he wants than to play team basketball.


That’s why Harden in Houston was that way. He didn’t exactly want to but the numbers suggested one guy going it alone was technically more efficient than letting role players decide outcomes.

when you think about it, it’s not completely irrational to say in a league that makes it hard to defend on the perimeter that you’re always better off if you give it to somebody near unstoppable than trying to play the “right way”, by spreading the ball to worse players, to fail at a higher rate.

The old way of thinking was that eventually they just take the ball out of that stars hands with doubles and when it happens you have a team full of guys not ready to play because they spent a season watching. But now you want the doubles because everyone can shoot…also…the better total team argument?

It doesn’t apply when the other team does the same thing.

The Warriors, in recent years and the spurs before them, played a game that maximize the other players, but if the entire league sees the efficiency of playing the way the Mavericks and rockets used Luka and harden, there is nobody left to take advantage of a different path so it’s no longer a disadvantage only a question of who ballhogs in the most dominant fashion.

[Kblaze8855]

Reading of article on some of these offenses, I saw the 2007 finals referenced and it was pointed out that Mike Brown was calling post ups for Anderson Varejao while LeBron was on the floor and you do have to ask yourself what line of thinking results in that?

So I went to watch a few clips and while I do remember recently watching some of that series and talking about it on here when you really look for just…stupid ball?


It doesn’t stand out. Ignoring that both teams played 3 non shooters together at times….you just have absolute nobodies in control of plays with stars watching.

It used to be pretty common. Larry Bird would go minutes without a touch. Jordan would watch Cartwright get post touches.

I distinctly remember talking to somebody on here about me doing a rewatch of the Pacers and Knicks playing in Reggie’s famous 25 point fourth quarter game and how the pacers at one point come down and feed Dale Davis in the post with Anthony Mason guarding him. You have to ask yourself….why?

Granted in that situation the Knicks proved idiotic enough to reward it as they doubled off of Reggie to give him an open three…..but that double the post talk is for another day….


Dale Davis would never get a post up today playing with Reggie Miller.


Bill Cartwright would get zero looks in the post.

Youd just give it to Jordan 66 plays in a row and if they double…they give up a three or a dunk.

I get the logic of it. But it’s gonna be so hard watching games if that’s all we have in a few years.

[Kblaze8855]

Oh, and let me share what an offense 15 years ago got in the closing seconds of a finals game.








I don’t think a role player today even thinks to do that. He might get the ball off the double but he’s looking to get it back to the star.


Did we empower role players too much in the past?


Is that was analytics has decided?

[FultzNationRISE]

Well from the leagues POV it's all about what casuals wanna see.

Casuals didnt like watching the Spurs and Pistons.

Casuals wanna see crossovers and three pointers. Which purists enjoy too, but not at the complete expense of every other style. Unfortunately it's just hard to create a rule set that doesnt favor one or the other. Whichever one is favored by the rules, teams are inevitably going to maximize it.

edit: I see NBA'd Out just said this exact thing in another thread. I had not seen it yet, no copyright infringement intended.

[tontoz]

I think at times teams aren't accounting for the fact that what works in the regular season doesn't necessarily work in the playoffs. Harden's style clearly didn't work as well in the playoffs when defenses are better and it's harder to draw cheap fouls.

[SouBeachTalents]

Points are points, but this is obviously an unsustainable model come playoff time.

[Kblaze8855]

I agree I’m just wondering what happens when everybody plays the same way, so there is no different style that works better. It doesn’t matter how smart or stupid your approach is if everyone does it the same way somebody is going to win with that stupid approach. If the numbers support just giving it to the best player to attack every time won’t the league take to it?

It’s not logically wrong to assume it’s better for the best player to take all the shots and draw doubles for open threes it just doesn’t feeeeeel right. Does it?

Does the offensive efficiency of a Luka, Harden, or whoever in the future taking total control make it the right way to play?

If it works…is anything “wrong”?

[tontoz]

Luka drives to score. He isn't really trying to bait the refs into cheap calls so that makes him more effective in the playoffs than Harden. Luka has really shown out in the playoffs.

One weakness both guys have is that they dont move much without the ball, although i do think Luka is more active than Harden. I think off ball movement gets underrated. It makes things a lot tougher for the defense. Not hard to guard a guy who is standing still.

[FultzNationRISE]

I agree I’m just wondering what happens when everybody plays the same way, so there is no different style that works better. It doesn’t matter how smart or stupid your approach is if everyone does it the same way somebody is going to win with that stupid approach. If the numbers support just giving it to the best player to attack every time won’t the league take to it?

It’s not logically wrong to assume it’s better for the best player to take all the shots and draw doubles for open threes it just doesn’t feeeeeel right. Does it?

Does the offensive efficiency of a Luka, Harden, or whoever in the future taking total control make it the right way to play?

If it works…is anything “wrong”?

Well this assumes every team will have a player capable of making this playstyle worth it. It may not be that the approach itself is inherently superior, but only when you have a Bron, Giannis, or Luka. Will those guys increasingly become a dime a dozen with each passing year such that every team ends up with one? Well for Lebron definitely not, that standard is way too high to be replicated. But with the rest? Probably. I guess when you think about it most teams are already more or less doing that with whovever their top guy is.