Derrick Rose's MVP was a travesty.

[thabisyo]

Your MVP, warming up the bench like a scrub and loving it

[SCdac]

So? Moses doing it 3 times proves there are exceptions. Why can't Howard be one of them?

Moses doing it 3 times out of nearly 60 MVP's proves that there are very rare exceptions, and that's not even mentioning Moses was a better player (but their similarities makes the comparison worth noting).

As for Rose's shooting, nobody notices his .45% shooting because 20+ other MVP winners have won it while shooting under .50% in general. It's more common.

Pretty arbitrary number picking 23 ppg, especially since Howard was at 22.9. 0.4 less than Duncan's 23.3 when he got his second MVP in 2003.

Eh, Duncan was clearly more of "MVP of the league" despite their ppg being similar, for reasons I'm sure don't need to be explained. Duncan at times was like a low-post quarterback out there, Howard's passing game is more pedestrian and in the same ball park as a Jermaine Oneal or Amare Stoudemire, who at their best I wouldn't consider MVP's based on offense only (we know Dwight is better defensively).

If you consider 2 apg and 23 ppg (for any position) among MVP's (only) arbitrary numbers, that's your opinion. They're basic statistics, not some unnecessarily advanced number. Without calculating the averages of MVP's the last 15-20 years (the kind of league Dwight plays in), I'd venture to say they top or meet those two averages.

But here's another one for Rose. His 4.1 rpg are the 3rd lowest ever in an NBA season with only 2001 Iverson(3.8 rpg) and 2005 Nash(3.3 rpg) averaging fewer.

In fact, those 3 seasons along with Nash in 2006 and Cousy in 1957 are the only 5 in NBA history where the MVP has averaged fewer than 5 rpg.

And Rose's combination of FG%(44.5) and rpg(4.1) rarely results in an MVP. Actually, it only has one other time with Iverson in 2011.

I'd argue Rebounds from your PG are much less important than assists from your franchise/MVP big man. Thoughts? If anything, I think your numbers are a bit more arbitrary than mine are (according to you) but fair enough.

The fact that Rose (a PG) falls in line with Nash and Iverson's and other guards makes sense, because none of them need to be proficient rebounders for them to be convincing winners, superstars, or MVP's.

Dwight, I'd argue, would be a much better player if he had better court vision in passing game ala Duncan or even somebody a step or two down like Marc Gasol. And Howard's lack of that natural playmaking abilities is compounded by his high turnovers. IDK about 2011, but last season the league average was 2.6 assists per game I believe, higher than DH's career average.

In the post-merger era, Howard's 2011 season is one of only 8 where a player has averaged at least 22 ppg and shot at least 59%. Here's the complete list.

1994 Shaq (29.3 ppg, 59.9 FG%) 20 FGA / 2 APG
1987 McHale (26.1 ppg, 60.4 FG%) 17 FGA / 3 APG
1990 Barkley (25.2 ppg, 60.0 FG%) 15 FGA / 4 APG
1980 Kareem (24.8 ppg, 60.4 FG%) 17 FGA / 5 APG
1987 Barkley (23.0 ppg, 59.4 FG%) 14 FGA / 5 APG
2011 Dwight (22.9 ppg, 59.3 FG%) 13 FGA / 1 APG
2005 Shaq (22.9 ppg, 60.1 FG%) 15 FGA / 3 APG
1988 McHale (22.6 ppg, 60.4 FG%) 14 FGA / 3 APG

I added Field Goal Attempts and Assists Per game, to further get my point across

If you ask me, Dwight stands out in this list, despite his efficient, 22+ scoring.

I know he's a great dunker, can clean up around the basket, and showed improved moves (and range, somewhat) that season, but he's not an out of this world offensive player and I don't think his scoring was separated enough from other high scoring bigs on playoff teams that season (Dirk, Amare). Howard's a finisher/powerful player, who's improved greatly, but a finisher by nature, imo.

I added those stats, because it shows how much more they are complete offensive players, demand/take more shots, and have an offense revolved around them.

Not many players have scored as much as Howard did and shot the percentage he did. And the only other season where a player did that with at least 14 rpg like Howard was Barkley in 1987.

Lebron is tough because he was probably still the best player in the game, but he didn't have a great season by his standards, and his standards in other seasons shouldn't be a factor in most valuable player of a particular year, unfortunately, the voters often disagree. And considering Miami's expectations the 58 wins hurt, though they're explainable as part of their adjustment period since they started 9-8 and similarly, when Miami took off as a team, Lebron's individual play took off after a slow start.

I'm fine with either Dwight or Lebron, though I lean towards Dwight. Dirk is up there as well, imo considering Dallas won 57 games despite going just 2-7 without him.

What's your point? That Moses was more dominant than Dwight because we know that. He was also unquestionably more dominant than Rose and would have ran away with the MVP had he had that same '83 season in 2011.

That's exactly the point, Dwight is like a lesser version of Moses Malone while also being not as MVP-worthy (to the majority of voters) as peak 2011 Rose, yet it's hilarious when people think Howard on his 52-win team got robbed, when he's really just happens to be the best big in a league with no real elite bigs. He scores alot taking relatively few shots... The point is, his MVP would have stood out more than Rose's. If you don't agree, I can respect that. I could see it going to Lebron. Many people and players were taken aback by Rose's great season, and while I agree some of it's for a media-story, his season was definitely sick and filled with highlight moments and the stats back it all up.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Moses doing it 3 times out of nearly 60 MVP's proves that there are very rare exceptions, and that's not even mentioning Moses was a better player (but their similarities makes the comparison worth noting).

Yeah, but while Moses was the better player overall, it's important to note that Dwight proved to be far more of a defensive anchor and better defender, and that's largely what sets Dwight apart(when healthy) in the current league.

As for Rose's shooting, nobody notices his .45% shooting because 20+ other MVP winners have won it while shooting under .50% in general. It's more common.

Pretty big difference between 45% and 50%.

It would be the same as me saying nobody notices Howard's 23 ppg because many MVPs have been under 25 ppg

Post-merger, 15 of the 37 MVPs have been under 25 ppg to be exact. And many of the MVPs pre-merger, in fact, out of 21 MVPs pre-merger, 11 were below 25 ppg.

Eh, Duncan was clearly more of "MVP of the league" despite their ppg being similar, for reasons I'm sure don't need to be explained. Duncan at times was like a low-post quarterback out there, Howard's passing game is more pedestrian and in the same ball park as a Jermaine Oneal or Amare Stoudemire, who at their best I wouldn't consider MVP's based on offense only (we know Dwight is better defensively).

Agreed, I was just pointing out that their scoring averages were very similar.

If you consider 2 apg and 23 ppg (for any position) among MVP's (only) arbitrary numbers, that's your opinion. They're basic statistics, not some unnecessarily advanced number. Without calculating the averages of MVP's the last 15-20 years (the kind of league Dwight plays in), I'd venture to say they top or meet those two averages.

I meant 23 ppg is an arbitrary number for a cut off point.

I'd argue Rebounds from your PG are much less important than assists from your franchise/MVP big man. Thoughts? If anything, I think your numbers are a bit more arbitrary than mine are (according to you) but fair enough.

Well, if you mean your star big man passing well is more important your point guard rebounding, I agree, though assist numbers themselves can be especially deceptive with big men. Though in Dwight's case, he wasn't a very good passer.

The fact that Rose (a PG) falls in line with Nash and Iverson's and other guards makes sense, because none of them need to be proficient rebounders for them to be convincing winners, superstars, or MVP's.

But it does bring to mind how view point guards have actually been MVP, well, Iverson was technically a SG, though as a 6'0" player who had to guard opposing PGs more often than not, this is largely irrelevant.

And wouldn't you agree it's fair to say that all 3 are near the bottom as far as defensive impact? Nash being bad, Iverson being hit or miss and Rose being average for his position, imo.

Dwight, I'd argue, would be a much better player if he had better court vision in passing game ala Duncan or even somebody a step or two down like Marc Gasol. And Howard's lack of that natural playmaking abilities is compounded by his high turnovers. IDK about 2011, but last season the league average was 2.6 assists per game I believe, higher than DH's career average.

I agree, I remember saying in 2011 that the one thing I was really looking for him to improve on was his passing.

I know he's a great dunker, can clean up around the basket, and showed improved moves (and range, somewhat) that season, but he's not an out of this world offensive player and I don't think his scoring was separated enough from other high scoring bigs on playoff teams that season (Dirk, Amare). Howard's a finisher/powerful player, who's improved greatly, but a finisher by nature, imo.

I agree, but what sets him apart was not his offense, but his defense, as well as the 14 rpg. The 23 ppg on 59% is a bonus, and pretty damn productive despite the low assists/high turnovers.

I added those stats, because it shows how much more they are complete offensive players, demand/take more shots, and have an offense revolved around them.

No doubt about it. Kareem, Shaq, McHale and Barkley are on the short list of greatest offensive PF/Cs ever.

That's exactly the point, Dwight is like a lesser version of Moses Malone while also being not as MVP-worthy (to the majority of voters) as peak 2011 Rose, yet it's hilarious when people think Howard on his 52-win team got robbed, when he's really just happens to be the best big in a league with no real elite bigs. He scores alot taking relatively few shots... The point is, his MVP would have stood out more than Rose's. If you don't agree, I can respect that. I could see it going to Lebron. Many people and players were taken aback by Rose's great season, and while I agree some of it's for a media-story, his season was definitely sick and filled with highlight moments and the stats back it all up.

Howard probably would stand out more, but it'd be due to his team's relatively low win total, imo. I'm simply talking about my personal opinion on who was the better player, made the bigger impact on the court and was more valuable to their team. I personally believe Howard is the answer for all 3.

[nathanjizzle]

As I said, the Bulls > Heat in the RS. Rose was nothing special at all. Even then, Bulls won only 4 games more than the Heat, with Lebron averaging considerably more than Rose. Rose was good, but not MVP good. If Rose played better than Lebron, he would've averaged more than Lebron or at the very least, played better defense. Oh wait, Rose doesn't know what defense is. Rose is not even close to being on Lebron's level. He's a shot jacking mental midget. Replace Lebron and Rose on the 2011 squads, Bulls win 68+ and the ring.
2011 Lebron >>>>>> Rose in scoring, rebounding, passing, and defense.

rose was nothing special at all? i can guarantee the only play youve seen from derrick that season were top ten on espn yea only winning 4 more games then the heat, but then you look at my stats against elite teams then its more telling, but you dont want to look at them or consider them because "oh no there just stats against elite teams and not what my player does again non competition."



lebron was a loser that season. he played good for 3 quarters and disappeared in the 4th, everyone that watched remembers this. having a losing record against elite teams isnt mvp worthy, especially losing most of the last 9 games against elite teams, and having rose win 12 straight against these elite teams, isnt going to make you mvp over rose. sorry try again.

ohyea, remember at the end of the season the heat falling apart and had a streak of losing games? they were the laughing stalk of the nba. crygate? yea, lebron should have been mvp. smh

[Pushxx]

Dwight should have won it that year.

[Unbiased_one]

Media always gets tired of giving the MVP trophy to the same guy. If they didn't, Jordan would have won every year in the 90s

Jordan should have won 7 in the 90s. He didn't play for 3 years.

[Mr Exlax]

some people say Dwight shoulda won too.

I am one of those people. He got the best results with the least amount of help. Bulls and Heat would've made the playoffs that year without Rose and LeBron. Magic would've been a lottery team without Dwight. Then those numbers he was putting up were unmatched by anybody. The dominance on both ends of the floor. Shit pisses me off all over again.

[BoutPractice]

It was a tough year to pick an MVP.

Statistically, without taking all the context and narrative into account, LeBron was the "normal" choice. A player that averages 27, 7.5 and 7 on 51% shooting with his team winning 58 games (11 more wins than the previous year, but more importantly, the team that played was with the year before had 42 less wins) should be a relatively uncontroversial choice for MVP. However, LeBron had already won 2 in a row, was underachieving by his own standards, and needed to be "punished" by the media for his actions, so not giving him the trophy made sense... but it's clear, looking at it as objectively as possible, that any other player than LeBron, with the same stats and same record, would have won it.

Dwight had the stats, but was handicapped by a 50 win record. Interestingly, he would've been the second MVP in four years to lose in the first round. Dirk had the record (as someone pointed out the Mavs had the best record in the league when he was healthy), but was having a below average statistical regular season by his standards due to injury... Dirk was undoubtedly the playoffs MVP and the player that made the biggest mark on the 2011 season in the end, but his regular season was nothing spectacular for MVP standards.

[aj1987]

rose was nothing special at all? i can guarantee the only play youve seen from derrick that season were top ten on espn yea only winning 4 more games then the heat, but then you look at my stats against elite teams then its more telling, but you dont want to look at them or consider them because "oh no there just stats against elite teams and not what my player does again non competition."



lebron was a loser that season. he played good for 3 quarters and disappeared in the 4th, everyone that watched remembers this. having a losing record against elite teams isnt mvp worthy, especially losing most of the last 9 games against elite teams, and having rose win 12 straight against these elite teams, isnt going to make you mvp over rose. sorry try again.

ohyea, remember at the end of the season the heat falling apart and had a streak of losing games? they were the laughing stalk of the nba. crygate? yea, lebron should have been mvp. smh

The Bulls defense is the reason why they even got the best record. The mental midget would've shit the bed if it wasn't for the Thibs and the defense. The Bulls were down in all those games because of Rose's shot jacking. He put them in the hole in the first place. If he played like a proper PG, they wouldn't even have needed all those 4th quarter heroics. 44% for the field? Let not even talk about his defense. As I said, Rose isn't anything special. Put him on a team which is not a defensive powerhouse, he's be a glorified Jennings. Also, the Heat didn't gel properly during the '11 season and yet they won 58 games and went to the Finals.

And for the millionth time, Lebron was a better scorer, passer, rebounder, and defender. The Bulls won only 4 games more than the Heat, thanks to Thibs and the defense, not Rose. Lebron averaged more than Rose and was a better player on a 58 win team and should've been the MVP. If not Lebron, DH deserved it more than Rose as well. The 2011 MVP award is the biggest sports gaffe EVER.

Oh yeah, remember the Heat winning 14 of 17 after that incident?

Side note: Rose got properly exposed in the playoffs. Shot 37% against the Pacers. Nothing worse than a shot jacking PG. 7% in the 4th quarters against the Heat. Glorified Brandon Jennings is what he is.

[Graviton]

Side note: Rose got properly exposed in the playoffs. Shot 37% against the Pacers. Nothing worse than a shot jacking PG. 7% in the 4th quarters against the Heat. Glorified Brandon Jennings is what he is.

Classic April 2013er representing.

By the way what did Lebron shoot in the 4th quarters of the 2011 Finals again? Was it even 7%? I recall it being 0% at times because he didn't even make a shot. He sure proved to everyone he deserved the MVP award with his flawless performance against Dirk.

[Psycho]

Classic April 2013er representing.

By the way what did Lebron shoot in the 4th quarters of the 2011 Finals again? Was it even 7%? I recall it being 0% at times because he didn't even make a shot. He sure proved to everyone he deserved the MVP award with his flawless performance against Dirk.

Haha, tough guy eh? What's your favorite player's PER? He doesn't even break 30? Not so tough now eh?

[COLOR="White"]Westbrook is a cripple[/COLOR]

[Graviton]

Haha, tough guy eh? What's your favorite player's PER? He doesn't even break 30? Not so tough now eh?

[COLOR="White"]Westbrook is a cripple[/COLOR]

My favorite player is Wilt actually, so I am not insecure about PER, unlike Perkins fans such as yourself.

[SilkkTheShocker]

All I remember is him shooting 6% with LeGod guarding him

[Frozen1]

Lebron stats in 2011 - 26.7 - 7 -7.5 on 51% FG
Wade stats in 2011 - 25.5-4.6-6.4 on 50% FG

It was the decision year, and lebron could not even separate himself that much from his teamate. Heat underachieved, could not beat a top team in a regular season with a lot of drama ("There were a couple guys crying in the locker room").

No way lebron would have won MVP that year, even if he had the best stats and was the best player. Rose was a new guy and his team won 60+ games, so even if undeserving, he was the right guy to win the mvp by the media standards.

[aj1987]

Classic April 2013er representing.

By the way what did Lebron shoot in the 4th quarters of the 2011 Finals again? Was it even 7%? I recall it being 0% at times because he didn't even make a shot. He sure proved to everyone he deserved the MVP award with his flawless performance against Dirk.

25% is what Lebron shot in the 4th, in the Finals. As I said before, I don't care much for Lebron at all. He was a passive bitch and cost Wade a ring and a FMVP. Still, Lebron deserved the MVP that year over Rose.