Which stage of their careers did Bron have worse cast or play in tougher conf than MJ

[Smoke117]

Since you don't watch NBA basketball....you're gonna leave for the season right? I mean...there is no point in posting on a nba basketball board if you are not going to...WATCH NBA basketball. Trust me...nobody wants to read your repetitive nonsense all season long about a player who has been retired for nearly 15 years.

[3ball]

last response. Why are you overlooking Kukoc who has Ginobli level metrics as a 6th man and is a really useful offensive player.

Kukoc's 1997 playoffs:

[COLOR="Navy"]8 ppg on 35%[/COLOR]


Kukoc's 1998 Playoffs:

[COLOR="Navy"]11 ppg on 39%[/COLOR]



Ginobili 2005-2011 Playoffs:

[COLOR="Red"]19 ppg on 45%[/COLOR][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] link to data




NO COMPARISON...

There's a reason Jordan had to achieve the highest PER ever for his rings - obviously, his supporting cast wasn't sufficient to allow anything less..

[pauk]

Hey 3ball, are Jordans eyebrows considered facial hair?

[guy]

It would be 85-93 for Jordan compared with 04-12 for Lebron and then 95-98 for Jordan compared with 13-16 for Lebron. Taking into account cast, conference, injuries, I don't really see how you could say Jordan had it easier most of the time. I'd say it would go 90, 91, 96, 97 for Jordan and the rest goes to Lebron.

[3ball]

It would be 85-93 for Jordan compared with 04-12 for Lebron

and then 95-98 for Jordan compared with 13-16 for Lebron.

Your categories are arbitrary.. Otoh, during the [COLOR="DarkRed"]first 6 years[/COLOR] of Jordan's career, his 2nd options of Woolridge, Oakley and 2nd year Pippen (14/6/3) weren't top 4 players at their position in the conference (all-stars), whereas Lebron's 2nd options during his first 6 seasons of Big Z and Mo Williams WERE all-stars, and therefore better relative to their competition than Jordan's cast.

Jordan's weaker cast is shown by the stats - his 33/8/8 yielded 47 wins for the 1989 Bulls, whereas Lebron's 28/8/7 yielded 66 wins in for the 2009 Cavs..

The 19 win gap can't be due ONLY to an espn-documented weaker conference - it must be due to a weaker supporting cast as well.. Jordan's weaker cast also explains why he was required to DO MORE thru 31 years old, including [COLOR="Navy"]30%[/COLOR] more PPG in the playoffs with equal assists.

[FKAri]

All of them. MJ was straight dog shit bruh. Nothing but hype. Saw some scrub at the park recreate MJ's hand switch layup

[SamuraiSWISH]

Jordan dealt with adversity like a man. LeBron ran from that shit like a boy.

[Smoke117]

Jordan dealt with adversity like a man. LeBron ran from that shit like a boy.

Yeah, because LEbron had anyone close to as good as Pippen on his first run with the Cavs. Nobody has done more with less than Lebron did on those Cav teams except maybe David Robinson. Both guys that were so dominant that they made their teams look much better than they actually were and won so many games that it made it impossible to draft any help.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Yeah, because LEbron had anyone close to as good as Pippen on his first run with the Cavs.

So that's a valid reason to leave and join the next best player in the league along with a top five PF? Kind of overkill if you ask me.

That's like Mike joining Barkley and Danny Manning after getting beat by the Pistons. Plus, who knows how far that Cavs team go in 2010 if he doesn't quit mid series vs Boston.

And Jordan was the one who molded Pippen's game anyway. Scottie wouldn't have been close to the player he eventually became without Mike. This is known by anyone who watched both players, or were involved with the team.

So he had impact on the quality of help he'd eventually have, and need. Totally different then joining self made players at the top of their game.

[Smoke117]

I'm not going to get in another Jordan/Pippen argument...was just pointing out a hole in your post. You can keep your idol on his shrine, so relax. Regardless, Pippen was a heavily sought after player in the draft that more than one GM saw as a future superstar...nobody with Pippens natural talent and basketball IQ was ever drafted by the Cavs.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I'm not going to get in another Jordan/Pippen argument...was just pointing out a hole in your post. You can keep your idol on his shrine, so relax. Regardless, Pippen was a heavily sought after talent in the draft that more than one GM saw as a future superstar...nobody with Pippens natural talent and basketball IQ was ever drafted by the Cavs.

I'm just educating you that Scottie wouldn't be a star if it wasn't for Jordan. So Mike had direct influence on his own sidekick's quality. He molded that piece of talented clay.

Cavs didn't draft anyone like that because they won a lot of games in a weak conference. And still had adequate enough support to compete. LeBron quit prematurely in 2010 playoffs, and ran.

[Smoke117]

I'm just educating you that Scottie wouldn't be a star if it wasn't for Jordan. So Mike had direct influence on his own sidekick's quality. He molded that piece of talented clay.

Cavs didn't draft anyone like that because they won a lot of games in a weak conference. And still had adequate enough support to compete. LeBron quit prematurely in 2010 playoffs, and ran.

Nobody "molds" anybody...you don't become great without hard work, talent, and skill. Jordan wasn't out there bouncing the ****ing ball for him was he? This god worship you Jordan stans have for him is far worse than any of these other Lebron and Kobe stans. They are at least complete retards...most of you can actually have an intelligent and reasonable conversation if it's NOT about Jordan.

The one thing I will give Jordan is that he is the one who lit the fires underneath Pippen early on. When he came into the league he was just happy to be there...just like anyone would have been who came from his background and unlikely story of being a lottery pick in the NBA draft. (for those that don't know his story you should look it up...it's really inspirational...not like that jordan I didn't make the varsity team my sophomore year bullshit)

[fourkicks44]

Nobody "molds" anybody...you don't become great without hard work, talent, and skill. Jordan wasn't out there bouncing the ****ing ball for him was he? This god worship you Jordan stans have for him is far worse than any of these other Lebron and Kobe stans. They are at least complete retards...most of you can actually have an intelligent and reasonable conversation if it's NOT about Jordan.

The one thing I will give Jordan is that he is the one who lit the fires underneath Pippen early on. When he came into the league he was just happy to be there...just like anyone would have been who came from his background and unlikely story of being a lottery pick in the NBA draft. (for those that don't know his story you should look it up...it's really inspirational...not like that jordan I didn't make the varsity team my sophomore year bullshit)

Yeah that is bullshit.... Jordan could be credited with making Pippen a winner (and the reverse can be also said), but Pippen still would have been a star without Jordan.

Pippen's story is amazing. It is incredible that Pippen and Rodman would find their destinies intertwined, when both of them came from buttf#ck nothing NAIA schools to become part of the greatest team of all time.

In all my infinite wisdom about the game I can't even name another NBA player that went to a NAIA school of the top of my head.

[jayfan]

Early stage, middle stage?

First 5-6 years of their careers?

What part of their careers career did Lebron have a worse cast or play in a tougher conference?

I'm with you for the most part. Jordan's cast is criminally overrated on this board. Especially the first 3 rings. Both Jordan and Lebron had bad casts in the beginning, and Lebron had the better casts through the majority of their careers.

However, Lebron's cast in 2007 was probably worse than any cast Jordan went to the finals with.

.

[guy]

Your categories are arbitrary.. Otoh, during the [COLOR="DarkRed"]first 6 years[/COLOR] of Jordan's career, his 2nd options of Woolridge, Oakley and 2nd year Pippen (14/6/3) weren't top 4 players at their position in the conference (all-stars), whereas Lebron's 2nd options during his first 6 seasons of Big Z and Mo Williams WERE all-stars, and therefore better relative to their competition than Jordan's cast.

Jordan's weaker cast is shown by the stats - his 33/8/8 yielded 47 wins for the 1989 Bulls, whereas Lebron's 28/8/7 yielded 66 wins in for the 2009 Cavs..

The 19 win gap can't be due ONLY to an espn-documented weaker conference - it must be due to a weaker supporting cast as well.. Jordan's weaker cast also explains why he was required to DO MORE thru 31 years old, including [COLOR="Navy"]30%[/COLOR] more PPG in the playoffs with equal assists.

Not really sure how it's arbitrary. Just taking it year by year i.e. 85 vs 04.....91 vs 10....then taking into the account the year he missed, 95 vs 13....98 vs 16. Seems reasonable to me.