"LeBron faced weak competition into the finals. Jordan didn't, 6/6 > 2/5"

[Elosha]

More interesting would be the W-L difference between their teams and the teams they beat. Beating a 60 win team sounds great...until you consider his team won 12 more games.

Oh I get it! We need to penalize Jordan for being the MVP on the 72-10 Bulls. It's not fair to Lebron that Jordan was the catalyst for the greatest regular season in NBA history and thus "12 more games" better than the Sonics.

Also you should get your facts straight. The 96 Sonics won a franchise record 64 games, not 60. So it's an 8 game W-L difference, not that it matters.

[Roundball_Rock]

Pretty sure the Bulls beat 60 win teams outside of 1996.

Obviously. My point was you have to look at the other side of the coin and assess the relative balance between the two teams. It is foolish to boast about a player beating a 60 win team when his team won 72 games. How is that different than a 56 win team beating a 44 win team?

Don't know why we ONLY include the ECF, lol.

I was too lazy to look everything up so I looked at the ECF just to see how the data looked. I may revisit this and look at their entire Finals runs later.

Jordan beat the Knicks and the Cavs before the ECF, both 50+ win teams.

Yes, the 51 win Knicks with the 67 win Bulls in the 92' ECSF and the 54 win Cavs versus the 57 win Bulls in the 93' ECSF. Keep in mind the Bulls without Jordan faced those two teams yet again in 94'. They swept the Cavs for the second consecutive year (so CLE went 2-11 against CHI from 1992-1994) and they fought the Knicks to a draw. Can you imagine the Heat battling the Pacers to a draw without LeBron or the 07' Cavs sweeping the Wizards without LeBron? It is easier to beat a 60 win team when your team with a D-Leaguer in your place is equal to said team the following year, no?

When you compare the number of 50 win teams each guy beat, it's no contest. That also doesn't mean as much without examining the contest, I'll concede that, but the discrepancy sounds pretty damning, doesn't it?

I think it is pretty clear, even if people will not want to concede these points, that 1) Jordan beat opponents who were tougher in a vacuum 2) Jordan's teams were superior to LeBron's. My question is what kind of relative superiority did each have in those series? I don't know the answer, although the ECF data suggests Jordan's teams had a greater supremacy over their opponents than LeBron's teams did. Still, that is just one of four rounds so maybe the data look different if you look at every round.

its akin to posters saying "jordan dominated top 5 defenses. lebron did not!" - well, no, jordan's "top 5 defenses" were less efficient in effectively limiting their opponents' scoring per possession.

The problem with Jordan mythologists is they will present conveniently chosen facts without any context.

Also you should get your facts straight. The 96 Sonics won a franchise record 64 games, not 60. So it's an 8 game W-L difference, not that it matters

I need to get my facts straight? The Sonics were not in the 96' ECF.

[Asukal]

I stopped reading when OP started comparing defensive ratings across eras. But I knew he is a dumbass so....

[mehyaM24]

I stopped reading when OP started comparing defensive ratings across eras. But I knew he is a dumbass so....

nice irony.

anyway, jordan fans have NO problem comparing raw stats and championships across eras....so?

[Roundball_Rock]

Here are the win differentials for the NBA finals:

1991: CHI +3
1992: CHI +10
1993: PHX +5
1996: CHI +8
1997: CHI +5
1998: equal records


2007: SAS +8
2011: MIA +1
2012: OKC +1
2013: MIA +8
2014: SAS +8

So LeBron's teams have had an inferior record in three out of his five Finals. Jordan's teams had a superior record in four Finals and an equal record in another. Only once did his team have the worse record. Not surprisingly the teams were closer in the Finals than they were in the ECF's.

[nba_55]

nice irony.

anyway, jordan fans have NO problem comparing raw stats and championships across eras....so?

Double standards

[Asukal]

nice irony.

anyway, jordan fans have NO problem comparing raw stats and championships across eras....so?

All your arguments against the GOAT=weak sauce.

Fck bran, most overrated ring chasing flopping diva piece of shit player ever. Go back to fapping to his stats kid.

[Elosha]

I need to get my facts straight? The Sonics were not in the 96' ECF.

Oh yes, now I see you were talking about 96 ECF only. Point still stands, why in the world would we penalize Jordan for the 72-10 record in 1996? They beat a 60 and 64 win team back to back. How many times has Lebron done that? Yet we should "downgrade" Jordan's 60 win ECF competition, (Orlando with Shaq and Hardaway), simply because Jordan's Bulls won 72 games and had a 12 game W-L difference?

You're a decent poster, but you can do way better than that. Sorry that type of logic just reeks of bias.

[Roundball_Rock]

How can we assess competition without looking at the other side of the equation? Is beating a 53 win team when your team is a 65 win team more impressive than your 56 win team beating a 48 win team? Is there a greater degree of difficulty in scenario 1?

I think it is pretty clear Jordan's opponents were stronger in a vacuum but it also is clear that Jordan's teams were superior relative to LeBron's. I do not know what the data would show for how the relative supremacy shakes out between Jordan's greater teams and LeBron's weaker opponents. Jordan fans just throw out "50 win teams!" without mentioning MJ's teams were winning 72, 69, 67 games.

[Asukal]

Oh yes, now I see you were talking about 96 ECF only. Point still stands, why in the world would we penalize Jordan for the 72-10 record in 1996? They beat a 60 and 64 win team back to back. How many times has Lebron done that? Yet we should "downgrade" Jordan's 60 win ECF competition, (Orlando with Shaq and Hardaway), simply because Jordan's Bulls won 72 games and had a 12 game W-L difference?

You're a decent poster, but you can do way better than that. Sorry that type of logic just reeks of bias.

[Asukal]

How can we assess competition without looking at the other side of the equation? Is beating a 53 win team when your team is a 65 win team more impressive than your 56 win team beating a 48 win team? Is there a greater degree of difficulty in scenario 1?

I think it is pretty clear Jordan's opponents were stronger in a vacuum but it also is clear that Jordan's teams were superior relative to LeBron's. I do not know what the data would show for how the relative supremacy shakes out between Jordan's greater teams and LeBron's weaker opponents. Jordan fans just throw out "50 win teams!" without mentioning MJ's teams were winning 72, 69, 67 games.

And that is why Jordan is a better leader than POS bran. What you think those bulls teams just won all those games by themselves?

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

I was too lazy to look everything up so I looked at the ECF just to see how the data looked. I may revisit this and look at their entire Finals runs later.

Yes, the 51 win Knicks with the 67 win Bulls in the 92' ECSF and the 54 win Cavs versus the 57 win Bulls in the 93' ECSF. Keep in mind the Bulls without Jordan faced those two teams yet again in 94'. They swept the Cavs for the second consecutive year (so CLE went 2-11 against CHI from 1992-1994) and they fought the Knicks to a draw. Can you imagine the Heat battling the Pacers to a draw without LeBron or the 07' Cavs sweeping the Wizards without LeBron? It is easier to beat a 60 win team when your team with a D-Leaguer in your place is equal to said team the following year, no?

How about the 47 win Bulls vs the 57 win Cavs and 52 win Knicks in '89? How's that for relative strength? The Cavs swept the Bulls that year in the regular season, too.

As for the "Jordan was replaced by Pete Myers" thing, well, we've been down that road before. We spent an entire thread talking about that. The '94 Bulls were a 51 win team by Pythagorean w-l, the '93 Bulls were a 58 win team by that same measure. The '93 Bulls coasted throughout the RS. The '94 Bulls were driven like never before. The '93 Bulls won the championship despite Pippen and Grant having worse stats than they did the following year. The '94 Bulls lost to the Knicks, despite Pippen having his best year and Grant his second best year. Above all, Pete Myers wasn't the only player they brought in to fill the void -- for the sake of being intellectually honest, why omit the fact that they also bolstered their roster by bringing in one of the best 3pt shooters of all time and an elite 6th man that would be a starter on just about any other team? You might not agree that they helped them that much -- fair enough. But at least include them. LORD KNOWS they were more important acquisitions than PETE MYERS. Im sure you agree with that.

By saying "omgosh they replaced Jordan with Pete Myers and were almost as good" you're ignoring context as flippantly as some of the Jordan fans you've been combating. Again, you're better than this

I think it is pretty clear, even if people will not want to concede these points, that 1) Jordan beat opponents who were tougher in a vacuum 2) Jordan's teams were superior to LeBron's. My question is what kind of relative superiority did each have in those series? I don't know the answer, although the ECF data suggests Jordan's teams had a greater supremacy over their opponents than LeBron's teams did. Still, that is just one of four rounds so maybe the data look different if you look at every round.

Cool, good enough for me....probably better to post ALL of the data then, instead of little snippets, right? Otherwise we can just twist it to accommodate whatever agenda we may have.

[knicksman]

damn take this 2/5 bran stans

[tpols]

Oh yes, now I see you were talking about 96 ECF only. Point still stands, why in the world would we penalize Jordan for the 72-10 record in 1996? They beat a 60 and 64 win team back to back. How many times has Lebron done that? Yet we should "downgrade" Jordan's 60 win ECF competition, (Orlando with Shaq and Hardaway), simply because Jordan's Bulls won 72 games and had a 12 game W-L difference?

You're a decent poster, but you can do way better than that. Sorry that type of logic just reeks of bias.

Lebron and MJ's opponent strength relative to team strength in eastern conference is...

Jordan (89-93, 96-98) = +265 wins
Lebron (07-14) = +202 wins

Overall...

Jordan= +265 wins
Lebron= +194 wins


The key thing to notice is that Jordan won everytime he was expected to. In '89 and '90 his teams lost.. but they were an average -11 to the teams that they faced. Once they secured a positive differential in '91.. they never lost.

Lebron on the other hand had a combined +76 win differential from '07 to '10 and he lost every single year. Lebron had a +14 differential in 2011 and he lost... He had a +11 differential in 2014 and again.. he lost.


So while Jordans teams were better relative to competition.. whenever they were expected to win, they won. Lebrons teams on the other hand were a total crapshoot to whether they would win or not with a positive differential. Half the time he would lead the team to great records but choke/quit and the other half he would prevail.

Lebron was one shot away from losing with a +74 win differential in 2013.

Thats fking insane.

[supernova5912]

How can we assess competition without looking at the other side of the equation? Is beating a 53 win team when your team is a 65 win team more impressive than your 56 win team beating a 48 win team? Is there a greater degree of difficulty in scenario 1?

I think it is pretty clear Jordan's opponents were stronger in a vacuum but it also is clear that Jordan's teams were superior relative to LeBron's. I do not know what the data would show for how the relative supremacy shakes out between Jordan's greater teams and LeBron's weaker opponents. Jordan fans just throw out "50 win teams!" without mentioning MJ's teams were winning 72, 69, 67 games.

Jordan played in much tougher era. Not sure what you're trying to say but Jordan's Bulls playoff wins is more impressive the Heat's playoff wins. For example, Jordan's 69-13 Bulls team beating a 61-21 Heat team is more impressive than LeBron's 66-16 team beating a 49-32 Pacers team in the Conference Finals.