Hakeem vs Kareem

[G.O.A.T]

I have said it before, but Hakeem basically built his entire career with TWO playoff runs (and in one of those, MJ did not play BTW.) He outplayed Ewing in one, although his numbers in that series not staggering ( 27 ppg, 9 rpg and .500 shooting.) And in the other run, he badly outplayed Robinson, and IMO, he was, at best, at a draw with a young Shaq in the other (don't take my word for it look at the ACTUAL numbers... he outscored Shaq, 32-28 ppg, but was outrebounded, and LIT up in terms of FG%, Shaq at .595 and Hakeem at .483.)

BUT, take a look at Hakeem vs. Robinson in their 42 H2H games. Aside from Hakeem outscoring Robinson by two ppg (21.9 to 19.6), and Robinson considerably outshooting Hakeem (.488 to .441)...their numbers were nearly IDENTICAL. Oh, except that Robinson's teams went 30-12 against Hakeem's.

THEN, take a look at Shaq vs Hakeem in their H2H's. Shaq easily outplayed him. A PRIME Hakeem MAY have outplayed a young Shaq, but a PRIME Shaq BURIED an over-the-hill Hakeem.

And one more time...Hakeem NEVER had what I would term a GREAT regular season. He NEVER won a scoring title. He NEVER won an efficiency title (and was never close, either.) He won TWO rebounding titles in EIGHTEEN years (albeit, which is one more than Kareem), and he won four block titles. Many very good seasons, but hardly "immortal" one's.

ONE MVP award...in those 18 seasons. TWO Finals MVPs. A couple of statistical titles. And EIGHT first round exits in the playoffs in 15 (of 18) seasons...or over HALF of his career. Sorry, but that PALES in comparison to players like Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, and Duncan. Then, it just becomes very close between Hakeem, Bird, Oscar, Moses, Kobe and West.

I think the bold is a little strong. Those two playoff runs were what every superstar in that era not named Jordan was aspiring for. I think when people see Hakeem's numbers and see him play, the individual ability is off the charts and he is relatable to nearly all fans.

When someone, justifiably, criticizes his ability from 1989-1992/93 to make his team better and to lead, people misconstrue that with underrated or underestimating his individual talent, which never really dipped. In fact, more so than most centers because of his belated learning curve, Hakeem continued to improve even into his mid-thirties, especially skill wise and more importantly mentally. He went to, in his words from the S feature "A better place" He learned to trust his teammates and coaches without questioning or betraying his instincts and personal pride. Maturity was a big part of what made him become the all-time great player he was for those two seasons.

[jlauber]

I think the bold is a little strong. Those two playoff runs were what every superstar in that era not named Jordan was aspiring for. I think when people see Hakeem's numbers and see him play, the individual ability is off the charts and he is relatable to nearly all fans.

When someone, justifiably, criticizes his ability from 1989-1992/93 to make his team better and to lead, people misconstrue that with underrated or underestimating his individual talent, which never really dipped. In fact, more so than most centers because of his belated learning curve, Hakeem continued to improve even into his mid-thirties, especially skill wise and more importantly mentally. He went to, in his words from the S feature "A better place" He learned to trust his teammates and coaches without questioning or betraying his instincts and personal pride. Maturity was a big part of what made him become the all-time great player he was for those two seasons.

Take away his TWO seasons in '94 and '95, and what do you have? You have a career that was certainly not as great as Robinsons' or Moses'...and maybe not even as great as Ewing's. Plain-and-simple.

Then, factor in that even in one of his title runs, he managed to escape playing a 55 win Bulls team withOUT MJ. Put MJ on that team, and I just don't see the Rockets having much of a chance. I will say that Hakeem might still have won a title in '95, because a refreshed MJ still could not get the Bulls past Shaq's Magic. But that was it. The rest of his career involved many very good seasons, with ZERO truly GREAT one's...in a LONG career.

And I think fans are even over-rating his peak. Yes, he badly outplayed a prime Robinson, but that was ONE series. Over the course of their other 42 games, I would rate them equal, except that Robinson's teams went 30-12 against Hakeem's teams.

He had some great post-seasons, but he also had his share of crappy one's too. And, one more time...EIGHT First Round exits. And only THREE Finals...in 18 seasons. His post-season career was somewhat better than Moses', but he wasn't as dominant in the regular season. West won one ring, but went to NINE Finals...and had some unbelievable playoff runs, himself (he still holds the single playoffs series scoring record of 46.4 ppg, as well as having a 38 ppg Finals and winning the Finals MVP on a losing team.) McAdoo's PEAK seasons, BOTH in the regular season, and the post-season, for three straight years certainly puts him in the conversation for those that include PEAK play.

Overall, those two title runs are probably just enough to SQUEEZE into the top-10 all-time. However, give Lebron a few more years, and Hakeem will be on the outside looking in.

[ShaqAttack3234]

He was no Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt, Kareem FOR SURE...and I see him with NO case over either Shaq or Duncan. At BEST, he was a #8. And to be honest, his career doesn't match Kobe's. If you want to rank him over Bird, based solely on a better post-season career...I won't argue. Most would disagree even with that.

And the more I look at Moses' peak dominance, the harder it is for me to even rank Hakeem over him. And given West's absolute brilliance in BOTH his regular seasons and post-seasons, he also has an argument. My god...a PEAK McAdoo...and including BOTH regular season AND post-season play is right there, as well.

Having seen Kobe and Duncan play for so long, I feel comfortable saying that neither were as good as Hakeem. And while I have Shaq above Hakeem, I have no problem with someone putting Hakeem over Shaq.

Magic? I may have missed Magic's prime as it was happening, but I've seen tons of Magic games and I definitely think Hakeem was a better player. I rank Hakeem's peak over Magic, he had better longevity and his early pre-prime years were better.

Moses? Hakeem was better at everything except rebounding. Every Moses Malone game I see shows he was as big of a black hole as anyone to play the game. He'd consistent catch the ball in the post, hold the ball, get doubled, still hold the ball and force up a shot. Hakeem developed into a very good passer and you could run the offense through him a lot. In fact, this was a huge key to the Rockets success when they won. Unlike Moses, he made his teammates better.

And defensively? Hakeem consistently anchored excellent defensive teams, was one of the game's premier shot blockers and most versatile defensive centers. Moses on the otherhand did nothing to prevent his Rocket teams from being below average defensively, they were actually the worst or 2nd worst defensive team several years. To put it simply, that's not going to happen if hakeem is on your team.

And how about the 1 ring Malone did win? That team had gotten to the finals and went 58-24 the previous year without him, and that was no fluke either considering they had contended for titles in '80 and '81 as well. he replaced Caldwell Jones on a team that was already good enough to compete for a title without him.

And you're the first person I've heard rank McAdoo up there with Kareem.

Rings, and the runs he put together to get them are his only case for the top ten.

Otherwise for the rest of his career he did nothing to separate himself from the likes of contemporaries Ewing, Robinson, Malone and Barkley.

his consistently superior postseason play separated him from Robinson, if it were based on just regular season success, Robinson would have been borderline top 10, so not separating himself from Robinson in that regard is nothing to be ashamed.

As much as I like Ewing, with the exception of 1990, Hakeem was superior just about every year due to being as good or better in every aspect of the game. I also consider him flat out better than Barkley and Malone because of his ability to dominate a game with his scoring, but also anchor a defense unlike either of those guys(Malone was a good post defender, but wasn't a defensive anchor like Hakeem).

That's because his time on top was so short. Hakeem was not in the conversation as the leagues best player prior to 1994. The year before he posted better numbers than Charles Barkley but Barkley won the MVP and the West.

But he also finished above Michael Jordan in MVP voting and imo, Hakeem should have won that MVP(though Barkley was also deserving).

Unlike guys like Wilt, Kareem, Mikan, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Duncan, Russell and Jordan who dominated entire decades or eras, Hakeem teetered on the next level and then made a brief appearance among the elite which coincidence or not coincided with the absence of his eras most dominant figure.

I disagree, I think he was elite from his 2nd season on, but didn't get the recognition others did because of poor supporting casts.

Even players like Kobe, Oscar, West, Doctor J and Elgin Baylor were better for longer, tough they never peaked as high as Hakeem.

I definitely disagree here. And Oscar is perhaps the most overrated player in NBA history, imo, I don't feel like re-typing why I feel this so here's a post I made on the subject a few months ago.

I'm not even talking about the quality of the players, just the stats in context, and I feel Oscar benefits a lot from people not putting the stats into perspective.

As far as team success, here are Oscar's Royals records.

1961- 33-46
1962- 43-37
1963- 42-38
1964- 55-25
1965- 48-32
1966- 45-35
1967- 39-42
1968- 39-43
1969- 41-41
1970- 36-46

He missed the playoffs 4 times in those seasons and won a total of 2 playoff series with Cincinnati. And the excuse that he played during the Celtics era doesn't work because they only lost to the Celtics 3 times in the playoffs, less than the amount of times Ewing's Knicks lost to Jordan's Bulls and the same amount of times that Barkley lost to Jordan's Bulls.

So, 2 playoff series wins, no finals appearances, one 50 win season.

And the supporting cast argument doesn't work unless you use it for Garnett, Robinson, Ewing ect.

Oscar entered the league with future hall of famer Jack Tyman who would make 2 all-star teams while playing with Robertson('62 and '63) and the all-nba second team in '62, Wayne Embry who made 5 consecutive all-star teams while playing with Robertson('61-'65) and then he got Jerry Lucas who made 6 consecutive all-star teams while playing with Oscar('64-'69) as well as 3 all-nba first teams and 2 all-nba second teams in those years. Adrian Smith also made the '66 all-star team while playing with Oscar and Tom Van Arsdale made the 1970 all-star team while playing with Oscar.

I don't view Dr. J as reaching a level similar to Hakeem's either. Tougher for me to say when it comes to West and Baylor, I've researched their careers, but haven't given as much thought to them as say, Wilt, Russell and Oscar.

[jlauber]

For three straight seasons, McAdoo WAS mentioned with a PRIME Kareem. He finished 2nd, 1st, and 2nd in the MVP balloting.

How did he do in those three years? Saddled with rosters considerably worse than what even Hakeem had,...

In 1973-74 he averaged 30.6 ppg (LED the league) , 15.1 rpg, and shot .547. Then, in the playoffs, he averaged 31.7 ppg, 13.7 rpg, and shot .478.

In 74-75, he led the NBA in scoring at 34.5 (in a league that averaged 102.6 ppg per team BTW), 14.1 rpg, and shot .512. How about his post-season? 37.4 ppg, 13.4 rpg, and .481.

And in 75-76, he once AGAIN LED the NBA in scoring at 31.1 ppg, 12.4 rpg, and shot .487. In the post-season, he averaged 28.0 ppg, 14.2 rpg, and shot .451.

That's a pretty damned impressive three-year run by ANY player in NBA HISTORY. Only a handful of players can match that. And Hakeem is not one of them.

[jlauber]

Magic? I may have missed Magic's prime as it was happening, but I've seen tons of Magic games and I definitely think Hakeem was a better player. I rank Hakeem's peak over Magic, he had better longevity and his early pre-prime years were better.

Magic won THREE MVP awards (and had a SOLID case for MVP in '82.) He won THREE Finals MVPs, and was EVERY bit as DOMINANT in his post-seasons, as Hakeem was in his. NINE Finals in 12 years, and FIVE rings...and seasons of 63-19 and 58-24 withOUT Kareem. Hakeem did have an edge in longevity, but PEAK????? Magic was the PLAYER of the DECADE, especially if you factor in post-season play (he was considerably better than Bird in the post-season, and much better H2H.) Hakeem had TWO seasons in which he was arguably the best player in the league.

Magic took a Laker team that, despite having as much talent as any team in the league, were no more than ordinary. He IMMEDIATELY led them to a title in his first year, an when he retired, the Lakers IMMEDIATELY returned to mediocrity. And his game six of the '80 Finals was greater than ANY of Hakeem's Finals games, too. And I would also take Magic's '87 Finals over either of Hakeem's '94 or '95 Finals, as well.

26.2 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 13.0 apg, .541 FG%, .960 FT%...and he ENGINEERED the Laker offense which just crushed Boston in the Finals.

[Fatal9]

^^ you have to be the most biased, illogical poster on this board. Hakeem's prime wasn't as good as McAdoo's now? Sometimes I wonder if you even watch basketball or just look around for numbers while never applying context (because for example, someone who understands basketball should not need to be explained why Bird is a superior offensive player to Dantley). I mean I really shouldn't even waste my time but...

Take away his TWO seasons in '94 and '95, and what do you have?

Take out '67 and '72 for Wilt and what do you have? A career loser who rarely raised his game in the playoffs.

Take out '09 and '10 for Kobe and what do you have? A career sidekick.

And so on for other players.

What kind of nonsense is this? And Hakeem in '86 led his team to the finals, something no one expected (is that not a great playoff run?). Individually he always raised his game in the playoffs (unlike a certain someone), but got screwed by the breakup of the team after '87 when most of the guys from the '86 team began getting in drug problems or got injured (Sampson for example). And it's not just '94 and '95, Hakeem was in discussion for best player in '93. Watch some games, commentators are always commenting on how many people thought he was MVP of the league (he came second btw, higher than MJ). Hubie Brown in the playoffs that year mentioned how MJ and Hakeem were playing head and shoulders above everybody else in the league that season because of their insane impact on both sides of the ball.

And to be honest, Hakeem is farther away from his man to man defense prime in '85 than Kareem was to his scoring prime that same year. KAJ could still drop 30 efficiently on anyone, but Hakeem was just a terrible man to man defender in the post (especially against someone who had a physical advantage over him). Here for example is the 40 point game he had against Hakeem/Sampson in '85, look at how bad of man defender Hakeem is at 6:22 and 8:46: www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q5QEFLydLA. All you were hoping out of him was "try not to pick up dumb fouls". If we're going through the "KAJ wasn't in his prime" angle, then how the hell is it fair to act like Hakeem was in his prime when his post defense looked like that of an inexperienced rookie (who looked like a beanpole too). All he was early on in his career was a good shotblocker who gambled a LOT on defense, no where near how good he would be in his defensive prime. And this is from someone who made this board aware of all those KAJ games as well. And anyways, Hakeem defended KAJ decently well whenever he was on him in the playoffs in '86 and outplayed him clearly. This is like taking the 50 point game and the 40 point games that KAJ had on Wilt in '72 season and not taking into account the good defense Wilt played on him in the playoffs.

[juju151111]

^^ you have to be the most biased, illogical poster on this board. Hakeem's prime wasn't as good as McAdoo's now? Sometimes I wonder if you even watch basketball or just look around for numbers while never applying context (because for example, someone who understands basketball should not need to be explained why Bird is a superior offensive player to Dantley). I mean I really shouldn't even waste my time but...

Take out '67 and '72 for Wilt and what do you have? A career loser who rarely raised his game in the playoffs.

Take out '09 and '10 for Kobe and what do you have? A career sidekick.

And so on for other players.

What kind of nonsense is this? And Hakeem in '86 led his team to the finals, something no one expected (is that not a great playoff run?). Individually he always raised his game in the playoffs (unlike a certain someone), but got screwed by the breakup of the team after '87 when most of the guys from the '86 team began getting in drug problems or got injured (Sampson for example). And it's not just '94 and '95, Hakeem was in discussion for best player in '93. Watch some games, commentators are always commenting on how many people thought he was MVP of the league (he came second btw, higher than MJ). Hubie Brown in the playoffs that year mentioned how MJ and Hakeem were playing head and shoulders above everybody else in the league that season because of their insane impact on both sides of the ball.

And to be honest, Hakeem is farther away from his man to man defense prime in '85 than Kareem was to his scoring prime that same year. KAJ could still drop 30 efficiently on anyone, but Hakeem was just a terrible man to man defender in the post (especially against someone who had a physical advantage over him). Here for example is the 40 point game he had against Hakeem/Sampson in '85, look at how bad of man defender Hakeem is at 6:22 and 8:46: www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q5QEFLydLA. All you were hoping out of him was "try not to pick up dumb fouls". If we're going through the "KAJ wasn't in his prime" angle, then how the hell is it fair to act like Hakeem was in his prime when his post defense looked like that of an inexperienced rookie (who looked like a beanpole too). All he was early on in his career was a good shotblocker who gambled a LOT on defense, no where near how good he would be in his defensive prime. And this is from someone who made this board aware of all those KAJ games as well. And anyways, Hakeem defended KAJ decently well whenever he was on him in the playoffs in '86 and outplayed him clearly. This is like taking the 50 point game and the 40 point games that KAJ had on Wilt in '72 season and not taking into account the good defense Wilt played on him in the playoffs.

[LebronGOAT]

They DID face each other...several times. According to Psileas Kareem had his season-high game against Hakeem in the 84-85 with a 40 point performance.

In that 85-86 season, there is some question as to how often Hakeem guarded Kareem, BUT he DEFINITELY guarded Kareem in at least one game...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=206575



For that entire 85-86 regular season, in their FIVE H2H games, Kareem averaged 33.0 ppg and shot an eye-popping .634 from the field against Hakeem and the Rockets.

True, Hakeem torched LA in games three and four of the WCF's, but unfortunately for Kareem, he seemed to have SEVERAL post-seasons in which he played considerably worse than he did in the regular season. He was well below his normal averages against Wilt in their '71 WCF's (25 ppg and .481 shooting, in a year in which he averaged 31.7 ppg and shot .577.) In the '72 playoffs against Thurmond, he averaged 22.8 ppg on .405 shooting, but his superior teammates allowed him to escape to the next series against LA, where, despite 33 ppg, he only shot .457 against Wilt (and only .414 in the last four games.) In game seven of the '74 Finals, and at home, he was outplayed by 6-9 Dave Cowens (outscored, outrebounded, and outshot), although to his credit, he played exceptionally well for the rest of that series. He was outplayed by Moses in both the '81 and '83 post-season. And, he was awful in his '88 and '89 post-seasons, particularly the Finals.

Still, for a 37 and 38 year old Kareem to be just be CRUSHING a Hakeem whose numbers were not far from his peak in those years (and his shooting even better) just says it all. His 46 point game came against a 23 year old Hakeem, too. Why is that important? Because a Kareem at 23 was the league MVP, and a Finals MVP. Furthermore, Hakeem was voted first-team all-defense in the very next season (86-87), so clearly, if an over-the-hill Kareem could abuse a 23 year-old Hakeem...the assumption has to be that a PRIME Kareem would just have carpet-bombed a prime Hakeem.

BTW, Hakeem couldn't contend with Kareem's sweeping hook, but a 35 year old Wilt, at the twilight of his career, and playing on a surgically-repaired knee, could block FIFTEEN of them in the '72 WCF's.

Regular season games are meaningless. Hakeem dominated Kareem in the WCF that year in 5 games. Now granted Kareem was old, but don't act like old Kareem destroyed Hakeem in a meaningful game.

Hakeem leading the way to the NBA finals in 1986 with a easy upset of LA proves just how dominant he was.

Kareem had more longevity, but I will take prime Hakeem over Kareem. Prime Hakeem was a monster and a far superior player than he was when younger.

[jlauber]

^^ you have to be the most biased, illogical poster on this board. Hakeem's prime wasn't as good as McAdoo's now? Sometimes I wonder if you even watch basketball or just look around for numbers while never applying context (because for example, someone who understands basketball should not need to be explained why Bird is a superior offensive player to Dantley). I mean I really shouldn't even waste my time but...

Take out '67 and '72 for Wilt and what do you have? A career loser who rarely raised his game in the playoffs.

Take out '09 and '10 for Kobe and what do you have? A career sidekick.

And so on for other players.

What kind of nonsense is this? And Hakeem in '86 led his team to the finals, something no one expected (is that not a great playoff run?). Individually he always raised his game in the playoffs (unlike a certain someone), but got screwed by the breakup of the team after '87 when most of the guys from the '86 team began getting in drug problems or got injured (Sampson for example). And it's not just '94 and '95, Hakeem was in discussion for best player in '93. Watch some games, commentators are always commenting on how many people thought he was MVP of the league (he came second btw, higher than MJ). Hubie Brown in the playoffs that year mentioned how MJ and Hakeem were playing head and shoulders above everybody else in the league that season because of their insane impact on both sides of the ball.

And to be honest, Hakeem is farther away from his man to man defense prime in '85 than Kareem was to his scoring prime that same year. KAJ could still drop 30 efficiently on anyone, but Hakeem was just a terrible man to man defender in the post (especially against someone who had a physical advantage over him). Here for example is the 40 point game he had against Hakeem/Sampson in '85, look at how bad of man defender Hakeem is at 6:22 and 8:46: www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q5QEFLydLA. All you were hoping out of him was "try not to pick up dumb fouls". If we're going through the "KAJ wasn't in his prime" angle, then how the hell is it fair to act like Hakeem was in his prime when his post defense looked like that of an inexperienced rookie (who looked like a beanpole too). All he was early on in his career was a good shotblocker who gambled a LOT on defense, no where near how good he would be in his defensive prime. And this is from someone who made this board aware of all those KAJ games as well. And anyways, Hakeem defended KAJ decently well whenever he was on him in the playoffs in '86 and outplayed him clearly. This is like taking the 50 point game and the 40 point games that KAJ had on Wilt in '72 season and not taking into account the good defense Wilt played on him in the playoffs.

Take '67 and '72 out of Wilt's career, and you have a player who went to FOUR other Finals, and TEN other Conference Finals, and outplayed his opposing center in ALL of them...including Kareem in the two in which he faced him (this, despite being 11 years older, and playing on a surgically repaired knee.) And the "loser: Chamberlain took inferior rosters to game sevens on two occasions against the vaunted Celtic Dynasty. All-in-all, he was NINE points away, in FOUR game sevens, from probably going on to win FOUR more rings. Hakeem can't come close to those numbers in his 18 season career (and remember, Wilt only played 14 seasons...and in his LAST two seasons, he won a title with a 69-13 team, and then took an injury-riddled 60-22 team to the Finals in his LAST season.)

Didn't elevate his play? FOUR post-seasons of 33+ ppg (and another two of 29m and 28 ppg), and EIGHT of 24.7+ rpg (and NEVER less than 20.2 rpg in ANY of his 13 post-seasons...including a 22.5 rpg average in his LAST post-season at age 36), and a post-season FG% of .522 in leagues that ranged from .410 to .456 (Put Wilt in Hakeem's 80's, and he would likely have shot over 60% BTW.) Even in his lowest FG% post-seasons, he was BLOWING AWAY the league average (something that Kareem failed to do in FIVE of his post-seasons BTW.) He had entire playoff series against Russell in which he averaged 30 ppg-27 rpg, 33 ppg-26 rpg, 29 ppg-27 rpg, 30 ppg-31 rpg, 28 ppg-30 rpg, and then a 22-32-10 series against him in '67 when he outshot Russell by a .556 to .358 margin. When Wilt was fortunate enough to just face a FIVE-TIME All-Star, like Zelmo Beatty, all he did was put up a 38-23 series in seven games. Against all-star center Red Kerr, he had a 38 ppg and then a 37-23 ppg series. Against journeyman Connie Dierking, he hung a 28-27-11 .612 post-season. In the '70 Finals, and basically on one le, he put up the only 20-20 .600 Finals in NBA history ( 23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and a staggering .625 FG%.) He had playoff games against Russell of 50 point and 35 rebounds, and 42-37, and 46-34, and 42-29, and 41-34, and a TON of 30-30 games against him. He had a 56-35 game in a game five of a best-of-five playoff series. He had a 45-27 game (on 20-27 shooting) in game six of the '70 Finals. He had a 24-32-13-12 game against Russell in one game of the '67 ECF's, and he followed that up with a 20-41 game in game three, and then a 29-36-13-7 clinching game five win.

And speaking of Kareem's 50 point game against Wilt...his TEAM was blown out 123-107, and he was outrebounded by Wilt. 25-8. Not only that but he took 39 shots. In fact, Kareem and Wilt went H2H 28 times, and in 18 of them, Kareem took 30+ shots. He only hit 50% in six of those. Not only that, but in six more, he shot less than 40% against Wilt.

Of course, Kareem NEVER faced a PRIME Chamberlain. A Wilt that could score 45 and 38 point games on Thurmond (and a 24 point second half in a game in a seaosn in which he only averaged 14.2 FGAs per game.) Meanwhile, Kareem's HIGH game against Thurmond, in 61 H2H meetings was 36 points. And without taking the time to look up his numbers, he probably shot much worse than 45% against him in his CAREER. BTW, he shot .464 against Wilt in their 28 H2H games, and only .434 over the course of their LAST ten games (including a .414 performance in the last four pivotal games of the '72 WCF's.)

However, a 37 and 38 year ol Kareem could score at will against Hakeem. I find it fascinating that Kareem averaged 20.2 ppg and shot .599 in the LAST four seasons of his career against Hakeem-led Rocket teams (at ages 38 thru 41 BTW). And we know that Kareem shot 70% in the 46 point game against Hakeem. In that 85-86 season, Kareem not only averaged 33 ppg, he shot an eye-popping .634 from the floor against Hakeem and his Rockets.

A PRIME Hakeem is credited with outplaying a young Shaq in the '95 Finals, although I would call it a draw. And don't forget, Shaq outshot Hakeem in that series, .595 to .483. However, a PRIME Shaq just CRUSHED a washed-up Hakeem in '99. Hakeem outplayed Robinson in the '95 WCF's, but in the rest of their 42 H2H games, I would call it a draw...except that DRob's teams went 30-12 against Hakeem's teams.

One more time...ONE MVP...TWO Finals MVPs, and a couple of rebounding and shot-blocking titles...in EIGHTEEN seasons. Including EIGHT first-round exits in his 15 post-seasons.

Of course, let's include ALL of their accomplishments in the ridiculous Hakeem-Wilt debate, shall we?

MVPs, Wilt with a 4-1 edge (and probably should have won a couple more...especially in '62.)

Scoring titles? Wilt with a 7-0 edge (and the FOUR highest seasons in NBA history.)

Assist titles" Wilt with a 1-0 edge (and Chamberlain finished THIRD in another season. Hell, Wilt had SEVERAL seasons with higher apg...and remember, he played in four less seasons.)

FG% titles? Wilt with a 9-0 edge. (and Wilt has the two highest in NBA history, and three of the top-5)

Rebounding titles? Wilt with an 11-2 edge. (Wilt was, by far-and-away, the greatest rebounder of all-time. Meanwhile, Hakeem had a season in which his own teammate outrebounded him.)

And everyone knows that Wilt was the game's greatest shot-blocker. Even adjusting for pace, Wilt would have probably blocked 7-8 shots per game in the 80's. We KNOW that he had a RECORDED game of 23 blocks, and another game in which the scorekeeper lost count at 25.)

Defensively, Wilt was arguably the second greatest defensive player in NBA history...with only Russell being greater.

Oh, and how many "Hakeem" RULES did the NBA institute during Olajuwon's career. We KNOW that the NBA legislated SEVERAL "anti-Wilt" RULES in HIS career.

Finally... how about the NBA RECORD BOOK. How many NBA Records does Hakeem hold? We KNOW that Chamberlain holds around 130.

[necya]

Sampson guarded him, not Hakeem, watch the tapes, fool.

he posted this like 10 times in the last 3 months...and i had to answer the same thing you did...but he just can't hear the truth.

i could have quoted Fatal's post as he was right, you are so biased jlauber.
the only way you use to judge players is by stats, a good one to propulse your Wilt.

ah yeah this so important to have rebounding titles, i have waiting Hakeem got one to say "wow he is a great rebounder". you look stupid talking about bball like that.

damn, you put too much emphasis on records put in a sport who had only 10 years of age in his professionnal history.
Pele in soccer has scored more than 100 goals in a season, todays players would need 4 seasons to do that...

[magnax1]

Pretty easily Kareem. Hakeem was the better defender, but pretty much anything else I can think of Kareem was better at, and on top of that he had the second greatest longevity of anyone.
Seems kind of simple, but what else really needs to be said? This is sort of obvious to me. Even if you want to argue that Hakeem was better at his best, it's not by much, and Kareem still had an advantage in longevity by a massive amount.

[jlauber]

he posted this like 10 times in the last 3 months...and i had to answer the same thing you did...but he just can't hear the truth.

i could have quoted Fatal's post as he was right, you are so biased jlauber.
the only way you use to judge players is by stats, a good one to propulse your Wilt.

ah yeah this so important to have rebounding titles, i have waiting Hakeem got one to say "wow he is a great rebounder". you look stupid talking about bball like that.

damn, you put too much emphasis on records put in a sport who had only 10 years of age in his professionnal history.
Pele in soccer has scored more than 100 goals in a season, todays players would need 4 seasons to do that...

First of all, basketball TODAY, is essentially the same game that was played in 1960. Yes, the lane is wider, but it had ZERO effect on Chamberlain. The year the NBA widened the lane to what it is TODAY, an ILL Wilt was averaging nearly 40 ppg at mid-season, and before his trade to Philly. And the very next year after that he led the NBA in scoring at 33.5 ppg AND set a then-record FG% mark of .540 (which HE would break two more times.) BTW, Wilt had EIGHT 60+ point games after the widening of the lane, which is THREE more than either MJ or Kobe had in their entire careers. And it was only because of his coaches and personnel that he did not have more.

And to say that the GAME was only TEN years old just how ignorant a poster you are. The NBA was formed in 1946, and Wilt was DOMINATING the NBA and setting records even into his LAST season, in 1972-73, which, in itself was over TWENTY-FIVE years later. But, PROFESSIONAL basketball had been around since the early 1920's. And COLLEGES were playing basketball as far back as the 1890's. Here again, the game was played on the same size courts, with the same size rims, with roughly the same size ball, for DECADES.

Of course the "anti-Wilt" posters like yourself and Fatal will come up with ANY kind of garbage in a desperate attempt to disparage what Chamberlain accomplished. You laugh at Wilt's rebounding records. Why? Because Hakeem could only win TWO titles in 18 seasons, and Kareem was even worse with ONE in 20 years. Those two were routinely outrebounded by much smaller players. Hell, Hakeem's TEAMMATE, the 6-6 Charles Barkley outrebounded him by FOUR rpg in the '97 season. As for Kareem, he was badlu outrebounded by a GUARD on his OWN team, in SEVERAL seasons, and post-seasons.

In Wilt's LAST NBA season, he LED the NBA (for the ELEVENTH time), in a league that Lanier, Cowens, Thurmond, Reed, Bellamy, Kareem, Hayes, Unseld, Silas, and others. Some of those guys would go on to lead the league AFTER Wilt, too. BUT, NEVER WITH Wilt. And his 18.6 rpg, which was his second WORST mark of his career, would be the highest mark for some 20 years, until Rodman's 18.7 rpg. BUT, Wilt also averaged 22.5 rpg in his 17 post-season games that year...in a league that averaged 51.6 rpg. Keep in mind this was a Wilt who was in the twi-light of his career, and playing on a surgically repaired knee. A 36 year old Wilt who was nowhere near a PEAK Chamberlain.

And for those that just can't accept Wilt's scoring marks...the highest scoring season in the Wilt-era, by a player other than Wilt, was Rick Barry's 35.6 ppg season in 66-67 (on .451 shooting.) And even Barry "thanked" Wilt for "letting" him have the scoring title that season. EVERYONE in the NBA at the time KNEW that Wilt could score 40+ ANYTIME he set his mind on it. And he proved it by having the HIGH game that season, of 58 points (on 26-34 shooting.) In fact, Wilt had the HIGH game every year after that into the 68-69 season, despite hardly shooting the ball during the course of the season.

I have mentioned this story many times, but in the 68-69 season, Wilt's COACH had basically told Chamberlain to sacrifice HIS scoring so that Baylor could keep shooting. Well, it got so bad that SI was set to run a story claiming that Wilt could no longer score. Wilt got wind of the story, and the night before it hit the newsstands, he hung a 60 point game on 6-10 Connie Dierking. And he followed that up a few days later with a 66 point game against 6-11 Jim Fox. BTW, that 66 point game came on 29-35 shooting, which is by far the highest FG% in a 60+ point game. I mentioned those two players for a reason, and I will get back to them later. Wilt went on a rampage for seventeen straight games that year, averaging 32 ppg in those game. He even hung a 35 point game on Russell, which was his highest game against Russell since his 46 point game on him in the last game of the '66 ECF's.

And the very next season (69-70), Wilt's new COACH, Joe Mullaney, asked Chamberlin to become more involved in the offense. In his first nine games he was averaging 32.2 ppg, and even crushed rookie Kareem in one of them. Here was Chamberlain, in his ELEVENTH season, PROVING that he could STILL lead the NBA in scoring. However, he shredded his knee in that ninth game ( a game in which he had just scored 33 points on 13-13 shooting BTW), and virtually ALL medical opinion said that his season was done (Baylor had the same injury a few years before, and he was out the entire season afterwards.) There was even doubt in the medical community that a 7-1 300 lb man would ever play again. Well, Wilt DID comeback...WAY ahead of schedule, and to surprise of the entire medical community. He was never quite the same, but still, he put up a the only 20-20 .600 Finals in NBA history that same season (23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and .625), including a 45-27 game (on 20-27 shooting.) He would also battle a prime Kareem to a statistical draw the very next season, holding a Kareem, who had averaged 31.7 ppg on .577 shooting during the season, to 25 ppg on .481 shooting (while scoring 22 ppg on .489 himself, and outrebounding Kareem, per game, 19-17.)

To be continued...

[jlauber]

Continuing...

Now, we have a couple of "bridges" here (actually there were many), but for the sake of this topic, we only need two. One was Rick Barry, who averaged 35.6 ppg on .451 shooting in 66-67. In the 75-76 season (and a few seasons after Wilt had retired), Barry finished with a 30.6 ppg average on .464 shooting. BTW, it was slightly better than Kareem's 30.0 ppg season...which would be Kareem's last 30 ppg season. So, obviously, the game had not changed AT ALL, from 67 to 75 (although overall FGAs were down a little.) In any case, and as we know, Kareem was still hanging 40+ point games on HAKEEM in the mid-80's. And ONE MORE TIME...it was HAKEEM who was guarding Kareem in TWO of Abdul-Jabbar's 40 point games (one in '85 and the other in '86.) A 37 and 38 year old Kareem just abusing a 23 year old Hakeem. And when Kareem was 23 he was leading the NBA in scoring at 31.7 ppg (on .577 shooting), and winning the regular season AND Finals MVPs.

Kareem is obviously the best example of a "bridge." He played for nearly FOUR decades (one year short of the 89-90 season.) And he played FOUR seasons in the Wilt-era. For those that somehow believe Kareem to be a greater player than Wilt, how can they explain these numbers? I mentioned Wilt's 60 and 66 point games against Dierking and Fox. Well, Kareem faced those two many times, himself, including the very next season after Wilt had just annihilated those guys. Where are HIS 60+ point games against them. Kareem also faced HOFers Reed and Bellamy. Chamberlain had THREE 50+ point games against Reed with a high of 58, and he had THREE 60+ point games against Bellamy, with a high of 73 (!). Kareem faced those two guys near the ends of their careers, and where are his 58 and 73 point games against them...even when they were washed up? Kareem also faced HOFer Nate Thurmond 61 times. His HIGH game against Thurmond was only 36 points. A PRIME Wilt had a 45 point game against Nate (outscoring him 45-13), as well as several 30+ point games. Unfortunately, the "scoring" Wilt only faced Nate a handful of times. Still, even in a season in which he dramatically cut back his shooting (66-67) there was an early season game against Nate, in which Wilt's coach asked Chamberlain at the half, to take it to Nate in the second half. Chamberlain crushed Thurmond in that second half with 24 points, en route to a 30 point, 26 rebound, 12 block game. Of course everyone here by now knows that Wilt had 24 games of 40+ against Russell, including FIVE of 50+ and with a HIGH of 62 (on 27-45 shooting.) CLEARLY, a PRIME Wilt could hang 40+ on ANYONE.

Here is another one...once again, Kareem played four years in the Wilt-era. Just taking ONE season together, in 71-72, Wilt had TWO 30-30 games (one of them was a 31-32 game against 6-11 HOFer Bob Lanier BTW)...in a year in which he hardly shot the ball. Why is that important? Because Kareem only had ONE 30-30 game in his ENTIRE 20 year career, and it came AFTER Wilt retired. Of course, not only did Wilt have 103 30-30 games in his NBA career (which is 75 more than all of the rest of the NBA...COMBINED)...he also had 55 40-30 games (and of course, Kareem NEVER even close to achieving that even ONCE.) AND, Wilt had 17 40-30 games just against Russell alone, including a 44-43 game.

Chamberlain also shot WAY over the LEAGUE AVERAGE his ENTIRE career. In his 50 ppg season, he was 80 points above the league average. In his 45 ppg season, he was 87 points above the league average. In his 33.5 season, he was 107 points above the league average. But, when he became his most efficient, he had TWO seasons of outshooting the league average by margins of .244 and .271...which are just LIGHT YEARS ahead of ANY other player in NBA history. He also finished .157 and .162 ahead of his nearest competitor in those two years...which again, is on the other side of the galaxy in comparison to any other leader in that category.

Blocked shots? Wilt had a game in the 68-69 season in which he blocked 23 shots. Give me a game in which Kareem had that many? In fact, Wilt had a game against KAREEM's Bucks in the '72 playoffs in which he blocked 11 shots (FIVE of them on Kareem BTW.) This from a 35 year old, 300 lb man playing on a surgically repaired knee. My god, Wilt was universally acknowledged as the best shot-blocker in the NBA in the years in which he played with Kareem...and this was a Wilt far removed from his prime (when he was putting up SEASONS of 10+ bpg.)

But, here again, Kareem PLAYED in the Wilt-era, and against MANY of the centers that Wilt faced for the entire decade of the 60's. Yet he was nowhere NEAR as dominant as a PRIME Wilt was. BUT, an aged Kareem, in the mid-to-late 80's could hang 40 + on players like Hakeem and Ewing (who he just murdered in that game...holding Ewing to nine points on 3-17 shooting.) Kareem DOMINATED Hakeem in the mid-80's...a Hakeem that would be considered the best center of the 90's, and who held his own against s Shaq that would dominate the 00's. And one more time...a way-over-the-hill Kareem hung a 46 point game on Hakeem (on 70% shooting in only 37 minutes), while a PRIME Shaq in the '99 playoffs against a washed-up Hakeem had his highest career game against Olajuwon of 37 points.

So, forget the numbers (as staggering as they), and just take a look at how much more DOMINANT Wilt was to his peers than ANY other player in NBA history. It is truly laughable that ANYONE would suggest that Hakeem would be anywhere near the player a PRIME Chamberlain was.

But IF you take a close look at the RECORD BOOK, there is page-after-page with WILT's NAME plastered all over it. And in many cases Wilt holds the NEXT mark as well. And the fact is, the majority of Chamberlain's records will never be approached, much less broken. And there were RULES put in place STRICTLY aimed at Wilt. How many RULES were put in place to curtail the "dominance" of Hakeem?

Wilt was a FAR greater player than Hakeem. There is simply no criteria that exists that disproves that fact.

[KingBeasley08]

^ Writing 10000000 words that no one will respond to doesn't make your point true

[lakers_forever]

Anyone who claim Hakeem was greater than Kareem, has no clue about the history of the game. How long was Olajuwon considered the best player in the world? One season? Maybe two? Kareem was the best player in the NBA during the whole 70's and was still amazing as an old man in the 80's. He had a better peak, prime and longevity (Hakeem stopped being a real dominant player at 34. A 39 year old Kareem was better offensively than a 34 year old Hakeem).

When Olajuwon was 27,28, and 29 years old,when players are near (or in) their prime, he could not even make it to the ALL NBA first team. That did not happen with the 4 best centers ever: Kareem, Wilt, Russell and Shaq.
This is pure revisionism. No one was saying Olajuwon was the great center ever in 1995. No one can seriously claim Olajuwon has a case to be considered the best player ever, like Kareem does.