Better all-time player: Dirk or Wade

[gilalizard]

Dirk.

Far better consistent performer.

Dirk's finals victory is beyond question. Totally legit.

"Dwhistle" earned this name in his finals.

[DMAVS41]

Dirk deserves to be ranked higher for all the obvious reasons.

As solely players though...Its too close to call for even me. Not sure who I would pick with a gun to my head.

I'll go with Dirk because I can't imagine he and Lebron not winning a title on the same team. Not really a fair comparison because of chemistry issues, but I feel like one reason why Dirk is still under-rated is his ability to play with just about any type of other player very well.

[Haymaker]

Dirk, obviously.

[TaLvsCuaL]

Today? Dirk

Tomorrow? Maybe Wade, or not.

[tpols]

Easily Dirk. Better scorer.. much better closer.. obviously better rebounder. Has way more of the important accolades on his resume. Infinitely better longevity.

[tpols]

Dirk couldn't have done it without Chandler, or Terry, or Marion. For a second option in the finals Shaq was almost tragically bad, your point is tragically idiotic.

edit: anyone got Wade and Dirk's numbers for the 2011 finals? Wade was the best player in that series.

Dirk was much more keyed in by the defenses as he was his team's clear cut best offensive player(and Wade had Lebron) and Dirk destroyed Wade in the clutch game after game. No way you can give that to Wade.

[DMAVS41]

Dirk couldn't have done it without Chandler, or Terry, or Marion. For a second option in the finals Shaq was almost tragically bad, your point is tragically idiotic.

edit: anyone got Wade and Dirk's numbers for the 2011 finals? Wade was the best player in that series.

Wait a second.

You list of Chandler and Terry and Marion as if they are great 2nd options and then call Shaq tragically bad?

Shaq in 06 was still a very good player. He had a much bigger impact than his stats. In fact, idiot Avery Johnson keyed on Shaq the entire series because he was so afraid of him and a big reason why Wade produced what he did was because of that.

But lets clear one thing up. Shaq was infinitely a better player than those three guys you just mentioned. In fact, all three of those guys on the Mavs would make for historically poor 2nd options on title winning teams. Really only the 03 Spurs and 94 Rockets had worse 2nd best players on title winning teams in the modern era:

Terry: 18/2/3
Chandler: 8/9
Marion: 12/6/2

Shaq: 18/10/2

Not only did Shaq produce significantly better than all of those guys, but he actually had to be game planned for and drew a lot of defensive attention.



In terms of Wade vs Dirk in the finals. I think Wade was the best player through the first 4 games, but he dropped off the last two....and he couldn't get it done late in those games....while Dirk played about as well as a player can possibly play in the big moments. I'd take Dirk overall in that series...especially given the fact that he didn't have Lebron and Bosh flanking him to draw a ton of defensive attention. Give Dirk 2 guys like that and he would have shot 55% probably.

[pauk]

Dirk Nowitzki

[ShaqAttack3234]

Wade was better at his peak, that is an easier choice because Wade was already better than Dirk in '06, when Dirk was arguably at his peak. Wade wasn't at his peak, but that was his second best year because he was in his athletic prime, and he was developing a nice mid-range game, particularly in the playoffs, plus he had gotten a bit more under control than '05.

But Wade's peak was in '09 when he returned healthy, his mid-range game was easily better than ever, and he used it more, while even becoming a decent threat on 3s, especially after the break. All while playing probably his smartest and most efficient ball with the best defense of his career.

But if we look at Wade's prime from '06-'11, 2 of those years were ruined by injuries, and aside from '06 and '11, he was a mediocre shooter, which is a problem for me with perimeter players.

Dirk has been more consistent, and outside of his phenomenal shooting which makes him a real mismatch, the rest of his game came around during the mid 00's, becoming quite good as a passer, a solid rebounder and improving to an average defender. He also does this without being ball dominant. By '06 or so, his mid-range game was one of the most devastating of all time, perhaps top 5 since I've been watching the NBA. He's led 3 completely different teams with different coaches to the WCF('03, '06, '11), 2 completely different teams with different coaches to the finals('06 and '11), and won one of them. That's very impressive, and he didn't truly get a chance in '03 when he was injured in game 3 of the WCF.

Definitely one of the best offensive players of the past 20 years, if not all time.

It's difficult because I value peak a lot, and both have rings as the man, but I also look at entire primes and injuries bring Wade's down.

I'd say they're in the same tier all time.

Dirk couldn't have done it without Chandler, or Terry, or Marion. For a second option in the finals Shaq was almost tragically bad, your point is tragically idiotic.

As far as Shaq in the finals, well, I can call game 1 bad for one simple reason, his free throw shooting was a reason they lost a winnable game despite playing well in other aspects such as scoring when he had opportunities and recognized the double teams. Game 2 was horrible, Shaq's worst game during his relevant years. But he played quite well from games 3-5, though he was quiet in game 6.

But he was also getting doubled constantly in the '06 finals, often on the catch, and Dirk was the double teamer quite a bit. That was probably motivated by seeing Shaq destroy Detroit when they guarded him primarily with single coverage.

However, he was essential to Miami even making the playoffs, much less winning a title. Far more than any specific teammate of Dirk's. Just look at Miami's record without Shaq, they were 10-13, and still just 10-11 when Wade played in those games, and that was with Alonzo Mourning to fill in as a 12/9/4 elite defensive center when he was starting. That was the difference in impact between Shaq in '06 and one of the better centers. Not to mention the big games he had vs Chicago in '06 when Wade had an off series, including a 30/20 game, or Shaq's dominance vs Detroit.

Even '07 Shaq who had declined more was enough of an impact player to lead an old, washed up Heat cast to a 16-7 record when Wade was injured.

The man was still a borderline top 10 player by '06, and Chuck Daly took it one step further.

[QUOTE=Chuck Daly]"It's amusing to me," Hall of Fame coach Chuck Daly said, adding that O'Neal remains one of the top five players in the league regardless of his stats. "Every night, people are playing him with two, 2

[Lord Leoshes]

Who ever picked Dirk has no clue of what defense is, cause Dirk could not guard his own shadow if his life depended on it. He is a liability 50% of the time he is on the floor, while even when Wade is having a bad shooting game, he still plays great defense. Specially off the ball.


In a shooting competition give me dirk all day every day, but in crunch time offense both would do great, but on the defensive end, Dirk would get schooled.

[Flamboyant]

1) They both took IQ tests and Dirk's score was higher? Funny, I didn't hear about this. If that didn't happen, what you posted is pure BS.

2) It is customary for a player at the power forward position to have better rebounding numbers than a shooting guard. Is this news? Or a reason to promote Dirk over Wade?

3) More clutch? Debatable at best. See: 2006 Finals.

4) Wade has a higher career scoring average than Dirk, and shoots at a better percentage.

1. Dirk definitely has higher IQ. A decent IQ would be enough to understand that. (And lol@ thinking they never actually took IQ tests)

2. I agree.

3. Debatable, but still Dirk. See: 2011 Finals (and the whole playoffs)

4. Wade is the better scorer, but don't bring the efficency, as Dirk is the better FT and 3pt shooter. See: TS%

DWade.... Not even close.

You don't go an entire career without learning how to play defense and get ranked over Wade. Sorry.

So now Wade is better than Magic??

[Shepseskaf]

1. Dirk definitely has higher IQ. A decent IQ would be enough to understand that. (And lol@ thinking they never actually took IQ tests)

2. I agree.

3. Debatable, but still Dirk. See: 2011 Finals (and the whole playoffs)

4. Wade is the better scorer, but don't bring the efficency, as Dirk is the better FT and 3pt shooter. See: TS%

IQ is a quality that is quickly disappearing on ISH.

1) On what basis can you definitively state that Dirk has a higher IQ than Wade? If you aren't privy to such a "test" being administered, then you cannot make that statement.

In addition, I'm assuming that "basketball IQ" is being discussed here, and both have proven to be very smart on the court, to the point where there is no conclusive evidence that one is higher than the other. Both led their teams to championships and were named FMVP.

3) I don't agree that the "clutch" label would go to one over the other. Both hit many key shots during their championship runs.

4) So, Wade is a higher career scorer, with a higher career FG%, yet Dirk is supposed to be more "efficient"?

I'm having a real problem with all these declarations that Dirk is "obviously" the choice between he and Wade. Wade has a little bench tantrum, and all of the sudden he gets devalued?

If anything, their career paths have been very similar, and all-time positions should be viewed as close.

[Shepseskaf]

So now Wade is better than Magic??

This meme that Magic played no defense is both ridiculous and completely false.

Not that he was an all-time defender, but notice that he led the league in steals twice, in '80-'81 (3.43 spg) and '81-82 (2.67 spg).

Suffice it to say that it isn't very likely that Dirk's name will ever appear on that list.

[PTB Fan]

Arguably Dirk, but it can go to either side. Dirk is more durable which is the reason why he's played longer while being elite.

[Yanch856]

Dirk. One legged fadeaway.

It just makes him so logically unstoppable - like he could use that shot when he's 55 and still score on a bunch of guys. Plus they were heavy underdogs going into that series against lebron, wade, and bosh. So how can you pick Wade right now?