The Trouble with Data and Statistics

[jlauber]

Lol see what I mean?

The fact is that for all his dominance, wilt didn't win nearly as much as the other consensus top 5 players. Magic has 5, Jabaar has 6, Jordan has 6, and russell has what 11? The alltime greats lap wilt when it comes to the most important stat in sports...... winning.

Players with 60+ win seasons...

Kareem with eight.
Bird with six.
Magic with five.
MJ with five.
Wilt with four.
Duncan with four.
Russell with three.
Shaq with three.
Hakeem with zero.

[RRR3]

Players with 60+ win seasons...

Kareem with eight.
Bird with six.
Magic with five.
MJ with five.
Wilt with four.
Duncan with four.
Russell with three.
Shaq with three.
Hakeem with zero.

Mo Williams played on two 60+ win teams. Is he better than Hakeem?

[jlauber]

Mo Williams played on two 60+ win teams. Is he better than Hakeem?

I didn't know that Mo Williams was considered a consensus top-5 player of all-time, either.

[97 bulls]

Players with 60+ win seasons...

Kareem with eight.
Bird with six.
Magic with five.
MJ with five.
Wilt with four.
Duncan with four.
Russell with three.
Shaq with three.
Hakeem with zero.

Lol...ok winning championships.

[jlauber]

Lol...ok winning championships.

Once again...TEAM game. I have mentioned it before, but just a couple of quick examples...

In Wilt's 59-69 playoffs, he averaged 33.2 ppg, 25.8 rpg, and shot .496 (in a league that shot .410.) His teammates collectively shot .380 in that post-season.

In Wilt's 60-61 playoffs, he averaged 37 ppg, 23 rpg, and shot .469 (in a league that shot .415.) His teammates collectively shot .332 in that post-season.

In Wilt's 61-62 playoffs, he averaged 35 ppg, 27 rpg, and shot .467 (in a league that shot .426.) His teammates collectively shot .354 in that post-season.

In Wilt's 63-64 playoffs, he averaged 34.7 ppg, 25.2 rpg, and shot .543 (in a league that shot .433.) His teammates collective shot .382 in that post-season.

In Chamberlain's 65-66 playoffs, he averaged 28 ppg, 30 rpg, and shot .509 (in a league that shot .433.) His teammates collectively shot .352.

I could go thru every one of his post-seasons, but in any case, he seldom had much help...even when he had some good rosters.

[97 bulls]

Once again...TEAM game. I have mentioned it before, but just as a couple of quick examples...

In Wilt's 60-61 playoffs, he averaged 37 ppg, 23 rpg, and shot .469 (in a league that shot .415.) His teammates collectively shot .332 in that post-season.

In Wilt's 61-62 playoffs, he averaged 35 ppg, 27 rpg, and shot .467 (in a league that shot .426.) His teammates collectively shot .354 in that post-season.

In Wilt's 63-64 playoffs, he averaged 34.7 ppg, 25.2 rpg, and shot .543 (in a league that shot .433.) His teammates collective shot .382 in that post-season.

In Chamberlain's 65-66 playoffs, he averaged 28 ppg, 30 rpg, and shot .509 (in a league that shot .433.) His teammates collectively shot .352.

I could go thru every one of his post-seasons, but in any case, he seldom had much help...even when he had some good rosters.

Hey....I'm the biggest proponant of the fact that no single player wins alone. Which goes to show just how meaningless your stats are. His teams didn't win.

A large portion of why these players are ranked so highly is because of championships. Championships give credibility to those gaudy stats. Wilt just doesn't measure up.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Lol see what I mean?

The fact is that for all his dominance, wilt didn't win nearly as much as the other consensus top 5 players. Magic has 5, Jabaar has 6, Jordan has 6, and russell has what 11? The alltime greats lap wilt when it comes to the most important stat in sports...... winning.

Wilt was a playoff choker. He was not "sandwiched out of plays". If he was, where are the assists those years? Wilt missed 1562 shots in the 61-62 season; Shaq = took 1594 shots in 94-95...and won a scoring title. Wilt missed 1562 shots in a season...Shaq has 3 career seasons taking more than 1562 shots and he was #2, #1, and #1 in ppg. It would have been 3 scoring titles, but David Robinson pulled a Wilt and jacked up 38 shots to close out the 93-94 season to selfishly win the scoring title over Shaq...something Shaq refused to do in 99 when he needed 40 pts to win the scoring title over Iverson, and took 13 shots. Wilt was a joke and doesn't belong in the same class as Russell, Kareem, Jordan, Bird and Magic.

[jlauber]

Hey....I'm the biggest proponant of the fact that no single player wins alone. Which goes to show just how meaningless your stats are. His teams didn't win.

A large portion of why these players are ranked so highly is because of championships. Championships give credibility to those gaudy stats. Wilt just doesn't measure up.

Championships are TEAM accomplishments.

BTW, do you regard Russell as the GOAT then?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Some proof of Wilts overrated WEAK-ASS defense? Go to youtube and in the search-engine type "1964 Nba finals G4 celtics@warriors 1/4"....at 3:15, Bill Russell gets the ball and backs Wilt down for the layup with no resistance at all!!! Russell misses the layup but tips it in with wilt chamberlain watching helplessly!!! WASNT THAT THE NBA FINALS? Wilt averaged 36.9 ppg 22.3 rpg in '64 yet was owned by Russell, as the footage shows. Just imagine Wilt guarding Shaq? I'm still waiting to see a Wilt highlight...I have seen plenty of Wilt footage....just no highlights

Check out that pathetic footage, AND THATS THE NBA FINALS!

[jlauber]

Wilt was a playoff choker. He was not "sandwiched out of plays". If he was, where are the assists those years? Wilt missed 1562 shots in the 61-62 season; Shaq = took 1594 shots in 94-95...and won a scoring title. Wilt missed 1562 shots in a season...Shaq has 3 career seasons taking more than 1562 shots and he was #2, #1, and #1 in ppg. It would have been 3 scoring titles, but David Robinson pulled a Wilt and jacked up 38 shots to close out the 93-94 season to selfishly win the scoring title over Shaq...something Shaq refused to do in 99 when he needed 40 pts to win the scoring title over Iverson, and took 13 shots. Wilt was a joke and doesn't belong in the same class as Russell, Kareem, Jordan, Bird and Magic.

Shaq won ten FG% titles, in 19 seasons. Chamberlain won nine in his 14 seasons, including two in his LAST two seasons (and in his LAST season he shot .727, which is a record that will probably never be approached.)

Ok, how about this, though. Kareem, Shaq, and Hakeem won four scoring titles...COMBINED...in their collective 57 seasons in the NBA. Wilt won SEVEN in his 14. Furthermore, those three COMBINED for FOUR rebounding titles. Meanwhile Chamberlain won ELEVEN. Wilt also won an ASSIST title...something that all three of those guys, COMBINED, NEVER accomplished.

[97 bulls]

Championships are TEAM accomplishments.

BTW, do you regard Russell as the GOAT then?

Again, you get no argument from me Jlauber. But it is a fact that championships are the most important factor for comparing players. Look at john stockton and magic johnson. Their statistics are very similar. Magic is the better rebounder, but stockton is the better defender. What seperates them most is championships.

James Worthy was at best a 19/5/3 guy. In a league that stressed scoring. And a solid defender. And was never the best player on his team. Why is he in the hall? 3 championships.

[97 bulls]

Championships are TEAM accomplishments.

BTW, do you regard Russell as the GOAT then?

No. Its jordan. Because he's in the discussion for any part of what makes a player great. And top 3 at that. You can't say that for any other player

[jlauber]

Some proof of Wilts overrated WEAK-ASS defense? Go to youtube and in the search-engine type "1964 Nba finals G4 celtics@warriors 1/4"....at 3:15, Bill Russell gets the ball and backs Wilt down for the layup with no resistance at all!!! Russell misses the layup but tips it in with wilt chamberlain watching helplessly!!! WASNT THAT THE NBA FINALS? Wilt averaged 36.9 ppg 22.3 rpg in '64 yet was owned by Russell, as the footage shows. Just imagine Wilt guarding Shaq? I'm still waiting to see a Wilt highlight...I have seen plenty of Wilt footage....just no highlights

Check out that pathetic footage, AND THATS THE NBA FINALS!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCWrGWuU2Ak

[RRR3]

Again, you get no argument from me Jlauber. But it is a fact that championships are the most important factor for comparing players. Look at john stockton and magic johnson. Their statistics are very similar. Magic is the better rebounder, but stockton is the better defender. What seperates them most is championships.

James Worthy was at best a 19/5/3 guy. In a league that stressed scoring. And a solid defender. And was never the best player on his team. Why is he in the hall? 3 championships.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Exposing Wilts defense...or lack of it, to be more accurate. The 1962 Sixers allowed 122.7 ppg...LAST in the nba....Wilt averaged 50.4 ppg that yr; 1963 warriors allowed 120.6 ppg...LAST in the nba...Wilt averaged 44.8 ppg that yr. In Wilts 2 highest scoring yrs, his teams were DEAD LAST in ppg allowed

My question is this: was Wilt spiking blocked shots into the opponents basket? Allowing 122.7 ppg and 120.6 ppg is not exactly shut-down defense considering stat-boy Wilt knew they didnt keep individual defensive stats, you know, where his priorities were....