i'l admit it right now. if era's all counted the same way. Jordans 4th all time

[kennethgriffin]

if a guy came into the league during the 90's and..................


30/25/10/4 for his career ( theoretically he did average 10 blocks )
won 4 mvps
won 2 titles
won 2 finals mvps ( theoretically he did have both finals mvps )
won 7 first team all nba's
won 8+ first team all defense's ( theoretically he would have )
won 7 scoring titles
won 5+ defensive player of the year awards ( theoretically would have )
won 1 assist title
was all time leading rebounder
scored the all time record most 100 points in a game
averaged the all time most 50 ppg for a season
averaged over 48+ minutes per game for a whole season
and held 100's of other major records all time



if a guy came into the league during the 90's and..................


15/23/10/4 ( theoretically he did average 10 blocks )
won 5 mvps
won 11 titles
won 8+ finals mvps ( theoretically he did have if the award existed )
won 11 all nba teams
won 9+ first team all defense's ( theoretically he would have )
won 7+ defensive player of the year awards ( theoretically would have )
was the all time leader in championships
was the all time leader in finals mvps
was 2nd all time leading rebounder
and was the greatest defensive player ever



if a guy came into the league during the 90's and..................


25/11/4/3 for his career
won 6 mvps
won 6 titles
won 2 finals mvps
won 10 first team all nba's
won 11 all defense's
won 2 scoring titles
won 4+ defensive player of the year awards ( theoretically would have )
was all time leading scorer
all time most allstar games played (19)
and held 100's of other major records all time
3 time NCAA champion
3 time NCAA MVP






imagine what the media and fans would do, with the increased exposier, popularity of the game. televised games.

now i know allot of these things are far fetched and the game was different. but thats my whole point. if the league was given respect for that era the way the 90's is. jordan would not be a top 3 player all time

jordan would be 4th all time at best

[Im so nba'd out]

You put a lot of effort into this thread...Here is my response

[kennethgriffin]

lets take it one step further.


now imagine jordans career totals came in the 60's or 70s

[livinglegend]

Agree with OP. Great thread.
They all have great cases for GOAT, but the media only promotes Jordan because he brings more money.

[ralph_i_el]

Why the hell are we talking about statlines? They don't transfer era.

Don't talk about players you didn't watch. End of discussion. Learn history, respect the greats, but don't presume to comment on what you haven't witnessed.

The best individual players don't win a title every year. The best don't even win one at all sometimes. That can't be the be-all-end-all GOAT criteria either.

[kennethgriffin]

i tried debating my friend the other day saying there is no GOAT.

jordan is ONE OF the greatest of all time.

and he nearly sh*t himself. i explained it and his only argument was "era"

then i said "well jordan did most of his statistical damage in a fast paced 80's before he even hit his prime"

and jordan won all his titles during the expansion era

and jordan had to also wait for the era right after the badboy pistons faided away, magics lakers faded away, birds celtics faded away.. and all he had to deal with was millers pacers, barkleys suns, drexlers blazers, paytons sonics and malones jazz... which none could hold a candle to the 80's best teams..

so jordan took advantage of an era as much as anyone else

no excuses

[kennethgriffin]

Why the hell are we talking about statlines? They don't transfer era.

Don't talk about players you didn't watch. End of discussion. Learn history, respect the greats, but don't presume to comment on what you haven't witnessed.

if you actually read my post i said exactly what you said and agree that the stats dont transfer. its a hypothetical if they had their stats with 90's hype

[Hey Yo]

3 time NCAA champion
3 time NCAA MVP

Possibly a 4X clean sweep if not for the college freshman rule keeping him from participating.

[Lebronxrings]

jordan benefited from both the whistles and soft defense. The reason he struggled against the pistons was because they actually played defense.

[Roundball_Rock]

Agree with OP. Great thread.
They all have great cases for GOAT, but the media only promotes Jordan because he brings more money.

Yeah. That is what has led to some of the backlash against MJ. He is presented as >>>>>KAJ, Russell, Wilt when all of them have equally legitimate cases for GOAT. They should be viewed as one tier but MJ is presented as being in a tier by himself.

KAJ's resume in most sports would have him as the GOAT. Basketball fans don't seem to value longevity much, though.

[moe94]

Thing about Wilt and Kareem is that Jordan has more Finals MVPs and stacks up well with them in all other accolades so exactly what is your point?

lol @ herderp put Jordan's totals in the 60s and 70s. What does that even mean?

[K Xerxes]

Yeah. That is what has led to some of the backlash against MJ. He is presented as >>>>>KAJ, Russell, Wilt when all of them have equally legitimate cases for GOAT. They should be viewed as one tier but MJ is presented as being in a tier by himself.

KAJ's resume in most sports would have him as the GOAT. Basketball fans don't seem to value longevity much, though.

Biggest reason why people don't see Kareem as outright GOAT is that they believe he rode Magic's coattails to 5 rings.

[juju151111]

if a guy came into the league during the 90's and..................


30/25/10/4 for his career ( theoretically he did average 10 blocks )
won 4 mvps
won 2 titles
won 2 finals mvps ( theoretically he did have both finals mvps )
won 7 first team all nba's
won 8+ first team all defense's ( theoretically he would have )
won 7 scoring titles
won 5+ defensive player of the year awards ( theoretically would have )
won 1 assist title
was all time leading rebounder
scored the all time record most 100 points in a game
averaged the all time most 50 ppg for a season
averaged over 48+ minutes per game for a whole season
and held 100's of other major records all time



if a guy came into the league during the 90's and..................


15/23/10/4 ( theoretically he did average 10 blocks )
won 5 mvps
won 11 titles
won 8+ finals mvps ( theoretically he did have if the award existed )
won 11 all nba teams
won 9+ first team all defense's ( theoretically he would have )
won 7+ defensive player of the year awards ( theoretically would have )
was the all time leader in championships
was the all time leader in finals mvps
was 2nd all time leading rebounder
and was the greatest defensive player ever



if a guy came into the league during the 90's and..................


25/11/4/3 for his career
won 6 mvps
won 6 titles
won 2 finals mvps
won 10 first team all nba's
won 11 all defense's
won 2 scoring titles
won 4+ defensive player of the year awards ( theoretically would have )
was all time leading scorer
all time most allstar games played (19)
and held 100's of other major records all time
3 time NCAA champion
3 time NCAA MVP






imagine what the media and fans would do, with the increased exposier, popularity of the game. televised games.

now i know allot of these things are far fetched and the game was different. but thats my whole point. if the league was given respect for that era the way the 90's is. jordan would not be a top 3 player all time

jordan would be 4th all time at best

Whole lot of nonsense here

[livinglegend]

Yeah. That is what has led to some of the backlash against MJ. He is presented as >>>>>KAJ, Russell, Wilt when all of them have equally legitimate cases for GOAT. They should be viewed as one tier but MJ is presented as being in a tier by himself.

KAJ's resume in most sports would have him as the GOAT. Basketball fans don't seem to value longevity much, though.

That's because it doesn't fit their agenda. For example, the media doesn't talk about that because it doesn't fit their MJ is GOAT agenda.

[Roundball_Rock]

That's because it doesn't fit their agenda. For example, the media doesn't talk about that because it doesn't fit their MJ is GOAT agenda.

Is there any other sport where longevity is ignored? Yeah MJ is a big reason: he played 15 total seasons but he played 17 in one and 18 in another. He was in his late 30's in Washington. So you are looking at 13 prime-type seasons, and he barely played in 2 of them. I also think part of it is due to Magic and Bird, who played only 12 and 13 seasons total. You have KAJ playing for 20, 10 of them as the best player in the league, 17 at an elite level, 18 at an all-star level and that means nothing?

Biggest reason why people don't see Kareem as outright GOAT is that they believe he rode Magic's coattails to 5 rings.

Thing about Wilt and Kareem is that Jordan has more Finals MVPs and stacks up well with them in all other accolades so exactly what is your point?

Championships are team accomplishments, though. If it is strictly about championships then Russell is the clear GOAT.

Yeah, people unfairly diminish Kareem due to Magic. People assume "Magic" was "Magic" from out the gate. If the implication is KAJ had a better team than MJ or Russell, compared to the other teams in the league at the time, that probably is not true.