Thoughts on this Top 50 all time?

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

holy sht this nikka just said Dirk had more help than Duncan
holy sht holy sht holy sht not sure if retarded

the difference in coaching pre Carlisle was massive never mind the actual casts.

[ImKobe]

Okay, I am still waiting for Dirk's glorious help... So we have, Josh Howard and Jason Terry, is that it?

Jason Kidd?
Caron Butler?
Shawn Marion?

You already forgot about the 09-10 squad that won 55 and lost in the 1st round with HCA? How many times has Dirk been eliminated from the Playoffs with Home Court Advantage?

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

It's virtually impossible to put together a Top-10 in which the majority agree with, much a Top-50.

Furthermore, players like McAdoo and Walton were certainly Top-20 at their peaks.

BTW, Moses is generally ranked way too low in these lists, and if you include the ABA years, Dr. J as well. From '79-'83 Moses was by-far-and-away, the best player in the game (sorry Bird, Magic, KAJ, and Dr. J.) Dr. J's ABA seasons came in his prime, and all we needed to see from him to realize just how dominant he could have been had he played in the NBA in those years, was his '77 Finals.

Mcadoo doesnt have a top 20 peak lol

[ArbitraryWater]

Jason Kidd?
Caron Butler?
Shawn Marion?

You already forgot about the 09-10 squad that won 55 and lost in the 1st round with HCA? How many times has Dirk been eliminated from the Playoffs with Home Court Advantage?

Oh, so now you're including guys from the 2010's I see?

So his best help over 7 something years was Josh Howard, Jason Terry, Jason Kidd and Shawn Marion?

All who were past their prime? None of who scored 20 ppg?

And he had multiple 60+ win seasons with THAT help? Name me someone else who won 67 games with similar help...

Dirk

Carrying decent rosters to 50-60 wins since' forever

[LAZERUSS]

Mcadoo doesnt have a top 20 peak lol

His '73-74 to '75-76 seasons, including his playoff performances, were probably Top-10.

BTW, he finished 2nd, 1st, and 2nd in the MVP voting those three years, and was robbed in '76.

[SouBeachTalents]

His '73-74 to '75-76 seasons, including his playoff performances, were probably Top-10.

BTW, he finished 2nd, 1st, and 2nd in the MVP voting those three years, and was robbed in '76.

Nash finished 1st, 1st, and 2nd in MVP voting between 05-07, was this a top 10-20 peak as well?

[ImKobe]

holy sht this nikka just said Dirk had more help than Duncan
holy sht holy sht holy sht not sure if retarded

the difference in coaching pre Carlisle was massive never mind the actual casts.

He had 60+ win teams pre-carlisle

Who's the best player Duncan's ever had? Manu Ginobili? Dirk had Nash, Finley, Jamison, and those dudes played with him in their PRIMES.

Jamison came to Dallas to play off the bench during his prime for crying out loud...

Dirk's had the better supporting casts for his career than Duncan pre-2013.

That wasn't really the debate anyways, it was more about Wade deserving to be ranked higher than he is on that list. I don't really care about Dirk vs Duncan.

[ImKobe]

Oh, so now you're including guys from the 2010's I see?

So his best help over 7 something years was Josh Howard, Jason Terry, Jason Kidd and Shawn Marion?

This is total bullshit. And you said 2005-2010, that roster was assembled in 2009, so it fits the time frame you presented, idiot.

And those guys were balling for Dallas, you're acting like they were scrubs. How in hell was dirk outperformed by Josh Howard in multiple Playoff series? (the times he lost in the 1st round)???

Are you seriously trying to tell me that Dirk won 60+ games by himself during his prime? Like Terry wasn't putting up over 16 a game while shooting a high percentage from the field, being an elite 3pt shooter, like his role players were not elite 3pt shooters. What is your excuse for Dirk getting wrecked by Golden State in the 1st round?

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Jason Kidd?
Caron Butler?
Shawn Marion?

You already forgot about the 09-10 squad that won 55 and lost in the 1st round with HCA? How many times has Dirk been eliminated from the Playoffs with Home Court Advantage?

Kidd was past his prime
lol @ u mentioning Shaq not being the same when he was robbed of MVP in 05 then bring up these nikkas

Caron Butler? He played 56 games thru 2 seasons and Dallas won a ring w/ him riding the bench for the playoffs

Marion was past his prime too not sure why youre bringing him up. He was a role player w/ elite defense at that point nothing more.

Duncan had Robinson, Manu, Parker, Bowen, Elliot, Horry, Diaw, Brent, SJax, etc

[ArbitraryWater]

This is total bullshit. And you said 2005-2010, that roster was assembled in 2009, so it fits the time frame you presented, idiot.

And those guys were balling for Dallas, you're acting like they were scrubs. How in hell was dirk outperformed by Josh Howard in multiple Playoff series? (the times he lost in the 1st round)???

Are you seriously trying to tell me that Dirk won 60+ games by himself during his prime? Like Terry wasn't putting up over 16 a game while shooting a high percentage from the field, being an elite 3pt shooter, like his role players were not elite 3pt shooters. What is your excuse for Dirk getting wrecked by Golden State in the 1st round?

Don't put words in my mouth you little fa[COLOR="Black"]gg[/COLOR]ot... You said Dirk had more help than Duncan throughout his career

Dirk had some decent surporting casts, but nothing special.... Definitely nothing you win a title with.

He was the lone superstar. Guys like '03 Duncan and '11 Dirk are exceptions, as they had good complimentary help, that stepped up, but still won without another star....

This guy routinely won 50+ games with Jason Terry as his 2nd guy, and you can't even give him credit for it or acknowledge it

[LAZERUSS]

Nash finished 1st, 1st, and 2nd in MVP voting between 05-07, was this a top 10-20 peak as well?

In McAdoo's '75 season, alone, and in 43 mpg, he averaged 34.5 ppg on a .512 eFG% (and an .805 FT%), in an NBA that averaged 102.6 ppg on a .457 eFG%. Think about that...just last year, the NBA averaged 101.0 ppg on an eFG% of .501. Furthermore, McAdoo also averaged 14.1 rpg.

In that post-season, he averaged 37.4 ppg, in a post-season NBA that averaged 100.5 ppg.

And he was nearly as great in both his regular seasons, and post-seasons, in '73-74 and '75-76.

Oh, and he routinely outscored Kareem in their H2H's.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

He had 60+ win teams pre-carlisle

Who's the best player Duncan's ever had? Manu Ginobili? Dirk had Nash, Finley, Jamison, and those dudes played with him in their PRIMES.

Jamison came to Dallas to play off the bench during his prime for crying out loud...

Dirk's had the better supporting casts for his career than Duncan pre-2013.

That wasn't really the debate anyways, it was more about Wade deserving to be ranked higher than he is on that list. I don't really care about Dirk vs Duncan.

Manu and Parker are better than all those players except maybe Nash. Are u really tryna pimp Finley and Antawn Jamison youre trying way too hard

Dallas had those 60 win teams because Dirk was amazing. His supporting cast rarely was amazing. In 2011 they were 2-9 in the games Dirk missed and lost to an injured raptors team at home whos best player available was Jerryd Bayless every other player on Dallas was healthy........seriously its like u dont understand the impact Dirk has w/ his spacing at the 4 position. He routinely makes players look way better than they actually are. Just look at Monta Ellis nikkas think he a top 5 SG now

[ImKobe]

Kidd was past his prime
lol @ u mentioning Shaq not being the same when he was robbed of MVP in 05 then bring up these nikkas

Caron Butler? He played 56 games thru 2 seasons and Dallas won a ring w/ him riding the bench for the playoffs

Marion was past his prime too not sure why youre bringing him up. He was a role player w/ elite defense at that point nothing more.

Duncan had Robinson, Manu, Parker, Bowen, Elliot, Horry, Diaw, Brent, SJax, etc

Kidd was still a walking double-double when he joined Dallas and played elite defense (notably on Lebron in the 2011 NBA Finals)

Shaq robbed of MVP in 05? Perhaps, but it has nothing to do with Wade's 2006 Championship run. Him destroying Dallas in the Finals while Shaq was reduced to being a role player.

Caron Butler, Marion, Stevenson, Barea, Terry, Chandler = all of them were great as a TEAM, their TEAM effort on containing Lebron is one of the greatest things ever seen in NBA history. RC is one of the GOAT coaches.

My debate wasn't even about Duncan vs. Dirk bro, it was about Wade being ranked too low on that all-time list.... I don't care whether Dirk really had more help than Duncan, though he had a lot of different players that played great over the years. People really underrate the team aspect and are just looking at names and disregard overall production of the team.

[eklip]

a lot less help? Nikka had Michael Finley, Steve Nash, Antoine Walker & Antawn Jamison in the early 2000s on those Don Nelson teams...

then later on had Jason Terry, Stackhouse, Josh Howard, a lot of solid role players throughout those years. Then obviously the championship squad with Kidd, Terry, Chandler, Marion, Peja.... Now he has another deep roster to work with. He can play 20-30 minutes and win comfortably. Also helps that he has one of the greatest NBA coaches ever in RC.

If anything, Dirk has had more help than Duncan over the years and has done less with it. How many years in a row did the Mavs win 50+ games and make the Playoffs prior to last season? And now they seem to be back at it. Yes, Wade has had better all-time players in Shaq & Lebron, but Shaq in Miami was not the Shaq in LA (especially the Shaq in 06 that put up 13/11 in the Finals). Wade's 06 run is more impressive than any Playoff run Dirk's had. And even in the 2011 Finals, Wade was the best player in that series and arguably the best player in the league that year. Wade's outperformed Dirk head-to-head.

Dirk played with Nash and Finley before he really hit his prime. 2003 Dirk got injured in the playoffs and 2004 both Finley and Nash under-performed immensely in the playoffs, it was one of the reasons why Cuban didn't resign Nash. Finley moved to the Spurs after 2004.

After 2003 Dirk was the only All-star on the Mavs with two exceptions:
Josh Howard made it 2007 into the All-star game as one of 4 injury replacements (because Mavs won 67 games)
Kidd was one of 4 injury replacements in 2009.

Dirk made it into two finals without another all-star player and with two almost completely different teams and two different coaches. He won the championship without another all-star and the championship team was horrible without Dirk. When he was injured they lost 8 of 10 games or something like that.

Wade won his first championship with Shaq. The next two championships he wasn't the best player on his team and he didn't even perform well in these two runs, at least not for a superstar.

Also statistically Dirk's 2006 run was as good as Wade's 2006 run (same PER, higher WS). Wade just won the title. Shaq was an all-star in 2006 and just behind Nash in the MVP voting the year before. Dirk probably had never a better teammate than 2006 Shaq. You can't really use his finals performance as an argument, because Nash and Finley performed worse in many series. Also Mavs focused on stopping him.

Dirk was also already an all-star before Wade came into the league and he is a better player now.

[ArbitraryWater]

Dirk played with Nash and Finley before he really hit his prime. 2003 Dirk got injured in the playoffs and 2004 both Finley and Nash under-performed immensely in the playoffs, it was one of the reasons why Cuban didn't resign Nash. Finley moved to the Spurs after 2004.

After 2003 Dirk was the only All-star on the Mavs with two exceptions:
Josh Howard made it 2007 into the All-star game as one of 4 injury replacements (because Mavs won 67 games)
Kidd was one of 4 injury replacements in 2009.

Dirk made it into two finals without another all-star player and with two almost completely different teams and two different coaches. He won the championship without another all-star and the championship team was horrible without Dirk. When he was injured they lost 8 of 10 games or something like that.

Wade won his first championship with Shaq. The next two championships he wasn't the best player on his team and he didn't even perform well in these two runs, at least not for a superstar.

Also statistically Dirk's 2006 run was as good as Wade's 2006 run (same PER, higher WS). Wade just won the title. Shaq was an all-star in 2006 and just behind Nash in the MVP voting the year before. Dirk probably had never a better teammate than 2006 Shaq. You can't really use his finals performance as an argument, because Nash and Finley performed worse in many series. Also Mavs focused on stopping him.

Dirk was also already an all-star before Wade came into the league and he is a better player now.

Manu and Parker are better than all those players except maybe Nash. Are u really tryna pimp Finley and Antawn Jamison youre trying way too hard

Dallas had those 60 win teams because Dirk was amazing. His supporting cast rarely was amazing. In 2011 they were 2-9 in the games Dirk missed and lost to an injured raptors team at home whos best player available was Jerryd Bayless every other player on Dallas was healthy........seriously its like u dont understand the impact Dirk has w/ his spacing at the 4 position. He routinely makes players look way better than they actually are. Just look at Monta Ellis nikkas think he a top 5 SG now

good post