Rip Hamilton

[3ball]

Think about how this guy got his points - now realize that's how ALL wings played in previous eras - SG's and SF's alike - there were no ball-dominant wing players in the 80's and up until the mid-90's.

Guys like Dominique, Drexler, and Jordan scored EXACTLY the same way Rip Hamilton did - by moving off-ball - the only difference is they were way more athletic.. But most of their buckets were catch-and-shoot or catch-and-go buckets just like Rip - that's just how all wings used to play.

That's why it's so funny when new fans compare wing players from different eras, and then debate which era made it more difficult to dribble-penetrate - previous era wings were never affected by efforts to stop dribble-penetration, because they didn't dribble-penetrate..

Furthermore, off-ball players benefit the most from spacing and ball movement, so previous era wings are better suited to take advantage the current environment than today's more exploitable, point-guard-wannabe wing players.. Anytime a good defense focuses on stopping a ball-dominator, the ball-dominator invariably gets shut down unless they have an off-ball game they can resort to.

Also, today's fans are wrong about dribble-penetration anyway - it's easy to prove that dribble penetration occurs more today than previous eras.. NBA Vice-President of Basketball Operations Stu Jackson was the creator and implementer of the new rules, and he said a major objective of the new rules was to increase dribble-penetration.. He subsequently stated the rule changes had worked to increase penetration, thus proving that penetration occurs more now than before the rule changes.

The NBA's own stats show that penetration accounts for more points than any other method in today's game, just like the NBA intended - the game is now based on dribble-penetration.. Not that any of this matters - again, the off-ball games of previous era wings have never been affected by efforts to stop dribble penetration - infact, off-ball players are the biggest beneficiaries of the spacing and ball movement that today's game provides.
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[ISHGoat]

SHUT THE FCUK UP 3BALLS

[Chadwin]

If defenders are respecting the shooters in both eras and staying close to a man, then it's easier to get into the paint now.

[T_L_P]

Only thing I remember was Rip being better than Jordan in the era where zone defenses were allowed.

[3ball]

If defenders are respecting the shooters in both eras and staying close to a man, then it's easier to get into the paint now.

Also, today's fans are wrong about dribble-penetration anyway - it's easy to prove that dribble penetration occurs more today than previous eras.. NBA Vice-President of Basketball Operations Stu Jackson was the creator and implementer of the new rules, and he said a major objective of the new rules was to increase dribble-penetration.. He subsequently stated the rule changes had worked to increase penetration, thus proving that penetration occurs more now than before the rule changes.

The NBA's own stats show that penetration accounts for more points than any other method in today's game, just like the NBA intended - the game is now based on dribble-penetration.. Not that any of this matters - again, the off-ball games of previous era wings have never been affected by efforts to stop dribble penetration - infact, off-ball players are the biggest beneficiaries of the spacing and ball movement that today's game provides.
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[Real Men Wear Green]

Guys like Dominique, Drexler, and Jordan scored EXACTLY the same way Rip Hamilton did - by moving off-ball - the only difference is they were way more athletic..

Some of the purest bullshit I've seen all day.

[3ball]

Some of the purest bullshit I've seen all day.

It's not bullshit at all.

Drexler, MJ and Dominique scored most of their points off of catch-and-go's and catch-and-shoot.

Are you disputing this?... It's a fact.

When did you ever see Dominique or Drexler employ a point-guard style ala Westbrook, Harden or Lebron?
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[Chadwin]

my summary of illegal D vs zone era:

if you are surrounded by crap shooters that aren't respected, it is easier to get into the paint in the illegal D era (defenders can't help on a Don Nelson iso in the illegal D era but can flood your side in the zone era)

if you are surrounded by good shooters that are respected, it is easier to get into the paint in the zone era (defenders have to stay at home in both eras but the guy on you cannot hand/forearm check in the zone era)

in theory of course

[Real Men Wear Green]

It's not bullshit at all - it's just not something you had thought of in that way before.

Drexler, MJ and Dominique scored most of their points off of catch-and-go's and catch-and-shoot.

Are you disputing this?... It's a fact.

When did you ever see Dominique or Drexler employ a point-guard style ala Westbrook, Harden or Lebron?

Yes, they scored after catching the ball. That is accurate. What is garbage is your assertion that they played like Rip Hamilton. You are talking about some of the greatest slashers the game has ever seen. Guys that got double and triple-teamed. They were defended that way because a single defender absolutely could not keep them from the basket. No, they did not play like point guards (where did that come from?) but Jordan was a good enough ballhandler that he could play pg and in fact did at points early in his career. Reggie Miller played like Rip Hamilton. Not MJ, Drexler or Nique. This is not Rip.

[G0ATbe]

I agree. Jordan would be a rich mans Rip Hamilton in this era.

[Im Still Ballin]

Think about how this guy got his points - now realize that's how ALL wings played in previous eras - SG's and SF's alike - there were no ball-dominant wing players in the 80's and up until the mid-90's.

Guys like Dominique, Drexler, and Jordan scored EXACTLY the same way Rip Hamilton did - by moving off-ball - the only difference is they were way more athletic.. But most of their buckets were catch-and-shoot or catch-and-go buckets just like Rip - that's just how all wings used to play.

That's why it's so funny when new fans compare wing players from different eras, and then debate which era made it more difficult to dribble-penetrate - previous era wings were never affected by efforts to stop dribble-penetration, because they didn't dribble-penetrate..

Furthermore, off-ball players benefit the most from spacing and ball movement, so previous era wings are better suited to take advantage the current environment than today's more exploitable, point-guard-wannabe wing players.. Anytime a good defense focuses on stopping a ball-dominator, the ball-dominator invariably gets shut down unless they have an off-ball game they can resort to.

Also, today's fans are wrong about dribble-penetration anyway - it's easy to prove that dribble penetration occurs more today than previous eras.. NBA Vice-President of Basketball Operations Stu Jackson was the creator and implementer of the new rules, and he said a major objective of the new rules was to increase dribble-penetration.. He subsequently stated the rule changes had worked to increase penetration, thus proving that penetration occurs more now than before the rule changes.

The NBA's own stats show that penetration accounts for more points than any other method in today's game, just like the NBA intended - the game is now based on dribble-penetration.. Not that any of this matters - again, the off-ball games of previous era wings have never been affected by efforts to stop dribble penetration - infact, off-ball players are the biggest beneficiaries of the spacing and ball movement that today's game provides.
.

[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]Incorrect 2ball, [/FONT]

[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]MJ played his career in the illegal defense rule schemes era, whilst Rip played during the heightened peak of defense, after the removal of illegal defenses in 2000 and 2001, and prior to the handchecking rules (That however was already truly dealt with during the 80's and 90's)... Jordan benefited as an individual from the 90's defense, he often didn't have to play much off-ball and could isolate frequently as the rules gave him freedom to do so without the defense being able to react and change...[/FONT]

otoh;

Why the low post offense has declined

In the 90's the Illegal defense rule schemes forced defenses to play man to man, weak/strong zones were not allowed... Defenses had their hands tied behind their back. It also did not allow the doubling of an off-ball player, usually a big with good post position. You could double the ball handler but it had to be an aggressive attempt, any otherwise would be deemed illegal. What all this means for low post players is that, they could get a good position on the block without being disrupted. There also was no 5 second back to the basket rule that exists now (AKA the Kevin Johnson rule).


- Notice the single coverage, open paint

In 2000 strong side zones were permitted, and in 2001 all types of zones were legal. Defenses were given more freedom. What this did was allow for more advanced defending schemes; today defenses are faster and smarter than ever before. It's incredibly hard for a limbering 7 footer to get good post position and adequate room to score when defenses are rotating and effectively doubling the block while still being able to cover the open man quick enough. Thus gone, were the days of the Illegal defense, the offensive ratings that were exponentially increasing from the 80's to the late 90's began to start to dip as defenses were finally allowed to fight back.


- Good luck trying to penetrate with this soft zone Kobe!

[RoundMoundOfReb]

lol Jordan would bring the ball up and run the offense quite often. No comparison with Rip.

[3ball]

You are talking about some of the greatest slashers the game has ever seen (Drexler, Dominique, MJ)

True, but for off-ball players like Rip and Reggie, slashing and spotting up was ALL they did - but obviously, the slashing part wasn't done as athletically as Drexler or Dominique..

You're just being confused by the athleticism difference, which inspired you to correctly state that Dominique, Drexler, and MJ are some of the greatest slashers of all time - but Rip and Reggie slashed just as much, just not nearly as athletically.

they scored after catching the ball.

Btw, the bolded above is all that's needed to prove the point - since Drexler, Dominique and MJ score in an off-ball fashion AFTER catching the ball, they aren't affected by efforts to stop dribble-penetration.

[ImKobe]

[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]Incorrect 2ball, [/FONT]

[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]MJ played his career in the illegal defense rule schemes era, whilst Rip played during the heightened peak of defense, after the removal of illegal defenses in 2000 and 2001, and prior to the handchecking rules (That however was already truly dealt with during the 80's and 90's)... Jordan benefited as an individual from the 90's defense, he often didn't have to play much off-ball and could isolate frequently as the rules gave him freedom to do so without the defense being able to react and change...[/FONT]

otoh;

Why the low post offense has declined

Kobe has done some incredible stuff against zone defenses and his 2009 & 2010 runs are very underrated because of that. He actually posted up in the zone and just shot over his defenders, no petty Lebron-go-into-pass-mode type of shit every time around. People wonder why Kobe shoots so much, but you put him in the 90s in his prime years and you'd see him put up even bigger scoring numbers than he did in the mid-2000s, imo.

Handchecking would be legal, but we saw what he did in 01. Dude would average 40 a game in Jordan's era.

[3ball]

If the creator and implementer of the new rules (VP of Operations Stu Jackson) says increasing penetration is a major objective of the new rules, and then says the new rules HAVE WORKED to increase penetration, then that proves penetration is higher today than it was before.

Period.

We can take the NBA's word for it - we don't even need the NBA's own stats that show penetration accounts for more points than any other scoring method in today's game.