Jordan beat a better version of 07' and 11' Lebron in 1992

[3ball]

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Thread Cliffs


It's pretty damn close

In the regular season and playoffs, 92' Drexler is nearly even with 07' and 11' Lebron - and in the Finals, Drexler destroys Lebron, and is therefore superior overall.

In the 92' Finals, Drexler's 25/8/5 on 41% against the 2 best perimeter defenders of all time destroys Lebron's worst-ever Finals performances in 07' and 11'.

Conclusion: 92' Drexler > 07' and 11' Lebron

[Smoke117]

^^^ we don't have PER data for the Finals, and drtg is basically a team stat

Uh...not really. It's not a stat you should use for players from opposing teams, but when just taken into the context of the same team it shows a lot. In David Robinson and Hakeems best defensive seasons they are about 10 lower than the team drating. That is all about their dominance. In the 92 finals the Bulls had an overall team drating of 103 with Pippen having a 102. Jordan had a 104 which makes him worse than the overall team.

[3ball]

Pippen and Drexler are actually really similar players as far as their scoring goes. The difference is Drexler played in the high octane Blazer offense's while Pippen played in the slow triangle offense. Scottie's best attribute as a scorer was his open court game. (where he's top 10) He was basically a one man fast break. If you put him on those Blazer teams his scoring would look more similar to Drexlers.

Drexler averaged 25/8/5 against the 2 best perimeter defenders of all-time, while defending the goat scorer.

That's obviously better than Lebron's Finals in 07' and 11', and obviously better than anything Pippen could ever do

You must not know what to look for when evaluating scoring ability if you think Pippen was on Drexler's level - Drexler had incredibly quick first step, easily quicker than Pippen, and he shot the ball better all over the court.. He had a somewhat unstoppable drive to his right (kind of like Lebron) and was a naturally big-time scorer from his high school and college days, with a variety of in-between shots/runners/floaters - i.e. scoring ability - that pippen didn't have.. Drexler was a much better finisher around the rim due to softer touch and better control on the release.

That's why Drexler had 2 Finals runs that > Lebron's 07' and 11' runs, while Pippen flames out in the 2nd Round like 19' Kyrie.. It's not even close.
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[3ball]

Uh...not really. It's not a stat you should use for players from opposing teams, but when just taken into the context of the same team it shows a lot. In David Robinson and Hakeems best defensive seasons they are about 10 lower than the team drating. That is all about their dominance. In the 92 finals the Bulls had an overall team drating of 103 with Pippen having a 102. Jordan had a 104 which makes him worse than the overall team.

The point is that DRtg is a team stat because everyone on one team often has better DRtg than everyone on the other team

So even though Pippen has lower DRtg than Drexler in a given series, that stat itself doesn't mean much, because the entire Bulls team had lower DRtg.. i.e. Horace and cartwright had a 100 and 105 drtg, respectively, but 5-time all-defender Buck Williams (all-defense in 92') had a 108 drtg... on down the line - the whole roster is like that.

DRtg simply counts defensive rebounds, steals and blocks, and is influenced by team performance.. The defensive rebounds emphasis is why Bird has lower DRtg than Pippen for their careers (but in a given series, Pippen might have lower drtg if the bulls team is playing better D, i.e. MJ helping bring Pip's DRtg down)
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[egokiller]

Lebron molded Kyrie into a giant killer. Make you abandoned your account.

Nope, Lebron never did anything for Kyrie outside of normal practice, unlike MJ who devoted his free time to molding Pippen. Try again.

[bigkingsfan]

while Pippen flames out in the 2nd Round like 19' Kyrie.. It's not even close.
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Kyrie/Pippen > Ordan

Confirmed.

[3ball]

[COLOR="darkRed"]Effective FG% on all jumpshots for Curry, MJ, Lebron[/COLOR]


[COLOR="White"].................[/COLOR]eFG% All Jumpshots

Lebron 2004: 35.6%, 324/998
Lebron 2005: 39.9%, 400/1136
Lebron 2006: 41.7%, 423/1166
Lebron 2007: 39.5%, 372/1066
Lebron 2008: 39.4%, 338/1001
Lebron 2009: 42.2%, 366/1024
Lebron 2010: 43.4%, 356/970
Lebron 2011: 45.4%, 393/968
Lebron 2012: 43.7%, 290/726
Lebron 2013: 49.0%, 333/784
Lebron 2014: 47.0%, 288/736
Lebron 2015: 43.1%, 280/788
Lebron 2016: 39.0%, 181/543
Lebron 2017: 44.8%, 226/643
Lebron 2018: 47.2%, 304/802
Lebron 2019: 47.2%, 210/563


Bryant 2000: 38.5%, 328/851
Bryant 2001: 43.0%, 460/1141
Bryant 2002: 41.8%, 478/1184
Bryant 2003: 44.1%, 597/1494
Bryant 2004: 40.3%, 282/787
Bryant 2005: 43.5%, 346/947
Bryant 2006: 46.5%, 709/1724
Bryant 2007: 46.7%, 556/1358
Bryant 2008: 44.6%, 468/1217
Bryant 2009: 45.0%, 519/1285


Jordan 1997: 51.2%, 727/1528
Jordan 1998: 42.4%, 600/1449


Currry 2015: 56.0%, 424/1029
Currry 2016: 62.9%, 389/847

[COLOR="White"].................[/COLOR]eFG% All Jumpshots

Lebron 2006: 41.7%, 423/1166 [COLOR="DarkGreen"]<----- lebron's highest VOLUME year[/COLOR]
Lebron 2013: 49.0%, 333/784 [COLOR="DarkGreen"]<----- lebron's highest EFFICIENCY year[/COLOR]

Jordan 1997: 51.2%, 727/1528 [COLOR="DarkGreen"]<----- nearly twice the volume with better efficiency than lebron's best[/COLOR]

Lebron lacks the jumpshot that old MJ used to maintain MVP status at 35 years old, and therefore lacks the necessary skills to make a "comeback" next year as the best player

When MJ was 34, he made [COLOR="DarkRed"]727[/COLOR] jumpshots at a 52% efg - that's twice the volume of lebron or curry's typical season, at better efficiency than lebron's best season (see stats in previous post above)

So goat jumpshooting - that's how MJ remained the best player at 35 (MVP/scoring champ/FMVP)

And it should be noted that MJ's goat volume is a reflection of the of his goat jumpshooting skill (fadeaway).. only MJ and Kobe are capable of that VOLUME, and at better efficiency than Lebron's best

[3ball]

Kyrie/Pippen > Ordan

Confirmed.

Except MJ made more jumpshots than anyone in recorded history (727 in 1997) at an effective FG% that was better than Lebron's career best - see the stats in the previous post above.

MJ was infact the goat jumpshooter for making 250 more jumpshots than Lebron and Curry's highest volume year, at an efficiency better than Lebron's career best.

Ultimately, Lebron lacks the jumpshooting skill that old MJ used to maintain MVP status at 35 years old, and therefore lacks the necessary skills to make a "comeback" in 2020 from his western conference exposure/lottery debacle of 2019.

And it should be noted that MJ's goat volume is a reflection of the of his goat jumpshooting skill (fadeaway).. When people say "fadeaway" they mean "jumpshot".. MJ's fadeaway was goat = his jumper was goat.. only MJ and Kobe are capable of that VOLUME, and at better efficiency than Lebron's best..

[Smoke117]

The point is that DRtg is a team stat because everyone on one team often has better DRtg than everyone on the other team

So even though Pippen has lower DRtg than Drexler in a given series, that stat itself doesn't mean much, because the entire Bulls team had lower DRtg.. i.e. Horace and cartwright had a 100 and 105 drtg, respectively, but 5-time all-defender Buck Williams (all-defense in 92') had a 108 drtg... on down the line - the whole roster is like that.

DRtg simply counts defensive rebounds, steals and blocks, and is influenced by team performance.. The defensive rebounds emphasis is why Bird has lower DRtg than Pippen for their careers (but in a given series, Pippen might have lower drtg if the bulls team is playing better D, i.e. MJ helping bring Pip's DRtg down)
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Pretty sure it's common sense that Pippen was a much, much better defensive player than Drexler. Only you are the one who has to say nonsense like this to try and prop up Jordan and shit on everyone he played with. Scottie Pippen is considered the greatest perimeter defensive player of all time. Drexler isn't even in a discussion for one of the top 30.

[bigkingsfan]

Except MJ made more jumpshots than anyone in recorded history (727 in 1997) at an effective FG% that was better than Lebron's career best - see the stats in the previous post above.

MJ was infact the goat jumpshooter for making 250 more jumpshots than Lebron and Curry's highest volume year, at an efficiency better than Lebron's career best.

Ultimately, Lebron lacks the jumpshooting skill that old MJ used to maintain MVP status at 35 years old, and therefore lacks the necessary skills to make a "comeback" in 2020 from his western conference exposure/lottery debacle of 2019.

And it should be noted that MJ's goat volume is a reflection of the of his goat jumpshooting skill (fadeaway).. When people say "fadeaway" they mean "jumpshot".. MJ's fadeaway was goat = his jumper was goat.. only MJ and Kobe are capable of that VOLUME, and at better efficiency than Lebron's best..

How much does it hurt you that Pippen made it to the 2nd round while Mikey was 1-9?

[LostCause]

92 was Drexlers peak and while you could argue he was as good as or better than LeBron in 07, LeBron was certainly better than him in 09 which obviously comes before 2011. So 11 was largely due to LeBron underperforming or just ironing out kinks with his new team, he wasn't a worse player than he was in 09. So by extension even if Drexler trumps him or is comparable, LeBron was actually a better player

Similar to how 91 can be considered a "down year" for Drexler

[3ball]

Pretty sure it's common sense that Pippen was a much, much better defensive player than Drexler.

That's your opinion - I'm just pointing out that you can't use DRtg to prove it

Pretty sure it's common sense that Pippen was a much, much better defensive player than Drexler.

So how did Portland have a higher-rated defense than the Bulls during the first 3-peat if Drexler wasn't holding his own as a perimeter defender vs. Pippen and Jordan?.. Neither team had a shot-blocking center and both had good defenders at the 4.

And Drexler wasn't far off from Pippen even if we look at the raw stats:

Career

Pippen. - 2.0 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 101 drtg.. 2.4 dpbm
Drexler - 2.0 spg.. 0.7 bpg.. 105 drtg.. 1.5 dbpm


Drexler was an underrated defender that would've equaled Pippen if he played alongside MJ and the Bulls' system... And get a good look at Drexler's physique here in the Jordan vs. Drexler FT line dunk comparison... He was a goat athlete - no elite SG's in today's game are anywhere near this athleticism - it was NOT easy to score on him

Drexler isn't even in a discussion for one of the top 30.

Drexler is extremely underrated - look how his 2 Finals runs > Lebron's 07' and 11' runs... .. you don't hear about that on the news.
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[egokiller]

[Smoke117]

That's your opinion

No...that's the opinion of anyone who watched them and knows anything about basketball and who doesn't have an agenda like you do.

[3ball]

92 was Drexlers peak and while you could argue he was as good as or better than LeBron in 07, LeBron was certainly better than him in 09 which obviously comes before 2011. So 11 was largely due to LeBron underperforming or [COLOR="Blue"]just ironing out kinks[/COLOR] with his new team, he wasn't a worse player than he was in 09. So by extension even if Drexler trumps him or is comparable, LeBron was actually a better player

Similar to how 91 can be considered a "down year" for Drexler

It was him learning he had real weaknesses in his game, such as no post game, while his inability to play great with Wade underscored his inability to play off teammates in general.

And even though Lebron's stats were great in 2009 and 2010, they were great the same way Iverson's peak stats were better than say, Mark Price's.. Iverson was more talented but Price was BETTER because he could win in spots that Iverson couldn't, just like anyone would've won in Lebron's place in 2011..

We know that Drexler wouldn't have lost in 2011, given his 25/8/5 performance in 1992 against the 2 best perimeter defenders of all time and goat dynasty of the modern era.