Stats from 1990-1999 for the best small forwards of the 90's

[3ball]

Laughable.

Yes these stats are indeed

1988 PLAYOFFS:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 10.0 on 46.5%

1989 PLAYOFFS:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 13.1 on 46.2%

1990 ECF[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] vs[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] DET:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 16.6 on 42.8%

1992 ECSF vs NYN:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 16.0 on 40.2%

1993 RD 1 vs. ATL:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 15.0 on 42.2%

1995 ECSF vs ORL:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 19.0 on 40.9%

1996 ECSF vs NYN:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 15.6 on 33.0%
1996 FINAL vs SEA:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 15.7 on 34.3%

1997 RD 1 vs WAS:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 16.7 on 38.3%
1997 ECF[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] vs. MIA:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 16.8 on 41.7%

1998 ECF[COLOR="White"]S[/COLOR] vs[COLOR="White"]N[/COLOR] IND:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 16.6 on 39.2%
1998 FINAL vs UTA:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 15.7 on 41.0%

MJ actually won nearly all those series - the best pippen-help he lost with was 10 ppg in the 88' and 89' playoffs (excluding baseball year in 95', where they lost with Pip's 19 on 41%)

So mj wins with any help over 10 ppg, while Lebron loses with 27 and 29 from Wade/Kyrie
.

[Rico2016]

Are we considering the other half of the game of basketball? The half where Pippen is a much better defensive player than Michael and arguably the defensive anchor for all six of the Chicago Bulls title runs? Please don't forget defense because when you consider the other half of the game of basketball it's not even close. Thanks for your efforts, once again, but this was a weak, poor attempt to prop up others while slighting Scottie Pippen.

[Turbo Slayer]

Are we considering the other half of the game of basketball? The half where Pippen is a much better defensive player than Michael and arguably the defensive anchor for all six of the Chicago Bulls title runs? Please don't forget defense because when you consider the other half of the game of basketball it's not even close. Thanks for your efforts, once again, but this was a weak, poor attempt to prop up others while slighting Scottie Pippen.

yep

[3ball]

Are we considering the other half of the game of basketball? The half where Pippen is a much better defensive player than Michael and arguably the defensive anchor for all six of the Chicago Bulls title runs? Please don't forget defense because when you consider the other half of the game of basketball it's not even close. Thanks for your efforts, once again, but this was a weak, poor attempt to prop up others while slighting Scottie Pippen.

Without Rodman, we see that Pippen's defensive ability only gave the Bulls the 7th ranked defense for the 1st three-peat (7th, 4th, 7th ranking from 91-93')

Otoh, Lebron had the #4 defense in 2007 and routinely ranked higher than 7th, so apparently his defensive help was better than MJ's defensive help (pippen and the #7 ranking).. similarly Lebron's defensive help was better than AI's in 01' (#5 defense), even though AI had the dpoy dikembe.

Ultimately, a teammate's individual defense doesn't matter when comparing the "help" that 2 guys have because defense is a team effort and other teammates or a system can make up 1 player's deficit...

And defense is easier to find than good offense .. for example, Stockton/Malone > Stockton/Dikembe because the Jazz can just get some unathletic white guy like Ostertag to play hard defensively and replicate dikembe - Ostertag infact swept Shaq in 98' - otoh, it's much harder to replicate Malone's offensive prowess, which is why offensive players get the big bucks and are harder to replace

For all these reasons, you overrate pippen and the impact his defense makes.. guys like Payton and Duncan are equal or better defenders than pippen, and we'd never accept 15 on 33% from them in their prime.. so we shouldn't accept it from pippen, and bump him down the ranks because he had a TON of series like that

[Turbo Slayer]

Without Rodman, we see that Pippen's defensive ability only gave the Bulls the 7th ranked defense for the 1st three-peat (7th, 4th, 7th ranking from 91-93')

Otoh, Lebron had the #4 defense in 2007 and routinely ranked higher than 7th, so apparently his defensive help was better than MJ's defensive help (pippen and the #7 ranking).. similarly Lebron's defensive help was better than AI's in 01' (#5 defense), even though AI had the dpoy dikembe.

Ultimately, a teammate's individual defense doesn't matter when comparing the "help" that 2 guys have because defense is a team effort and other teammates or a system can make up 1 player's deficit...

For example, Stockton/Malone > Stockton/Dikembe because the Jazz can just get some unathletic white guy like Ostertag to play hard defensively and replicate dikembe - and Ostertag swept Shaq in 98' - otoh, it's much harder to replicate Malone's offensive prowess, which is why offensive players get the big bucks and are harder to replace

For all these reasons, you overrate pippen and the impact his defense makes..

Without Pippen no MJ so I don't think he's overrated like you said.

[3ball]

Without Pippen no MJ so I don't think he's overrated like you said.

Before Woolridge started overdosing on cocaine, Bird thought MJ was working miracles with him and that he'd be an all-star for "years to come" alongside MJ

So if it wasn't gonna be woolridge, it was gonna be the next elite athlete, which happened to be Pippen

All-time greats always get to play with a good player or 2 in their career.. MJ simply won the most with his, which represented the least star help of any multiple time champion

The remarkable thing is that MJ didn't have to tone his scoring down like Lebron, Kobe, and others when they won - mj is the only guy to win a title as scoring champ (6 times).. edit: Kareem and shaq did it once each in their peak seasons of 71' and 00'...

MJ winning the title as the scoring champ shows how optimal his game was that he didn't have to tone it down to win - his game was good enough in it's "hot dog scoring champion mode", whereas others had to tone it down below 30 ppg to win

[eliteballer]

Vin Bakers, Shawn Kemp, Coleman on a list of small forwards?

Now you're making me question how old you are..

[3ball]

Vin Bakers, Shawn Kemp, Coleman on a list of small forwards?

Now you're making me question how old you are..

Anyone who watched at the time knows that Vin was versatile as hell and played the 3 at times

And I included coleman and kemp in a different category in the IP

The guys that were picking on the positional stuff earlier simply have no other argument - Pippen's many horrific offensive series and 7th team rank on defense isn't much to stand on.. heck lebron had more defensive help with his 07' Cavs, who had the #4 defense

Ultimately, guys like Payton and Duncan were equal or better defenders than Pip, but we'd never accept 15 on 33% from them in their prime - those would be black marks on their career and they should be for pippen too.. and he has a ton of series like this

[3ball]

.
Thread Cliffs


Bulls defensive rank from 91-93':[COLOR="White"].'[/COLOR] 7th, 4th, 7th

Pippen's many poor offensive series and his 7th rank for team defense isn't much to stand on.. heck lebron had more defensive help with his 07' Cavs, who had the #4 defense

And guys like Payton and Duncan were equal or better defenders than Pip, but we'd never accept 15 on 33% from them in their prime - those would be black marks on their career and they should be for pippen too, who has many series like this

[AussieSteve]

... insane ramblings...

Pip had 1 prime season as first option and in that 1 season he achieved more than what many all time top 50 players achieved as first option in their whole career. If he had a decade as first option, not under the shadow of MJ, he'd have multiple top 5 MVP finishes, and surely at least a couple of deep playoff runs as the man. Of course he's not winning a championship as the best scorer on the team, but he certainly could win rings as the best player on the team, as long as he had decent 2nd soring option. He'd need a 2nd all star but theres no shame in that. Jordan needed one too.

You think most of the guys in OP were better than Pip. Show me one that got out of the 2nd round without a significantly more stacked team than the 94 Bulls.

[3ball]

Pip had 1 prime season as first option and in that 1 season he achieved more than what many all time top 50 players achieved as first option in their whole career. [COLOR="Red"]If he had a decade as first option, not under the shadow of MJ[/COLOR], he'd have multiple top 5 MVP finishes, and surely at least a couple of deep playoff runs as the man. Of course he's not winning a championship as the best scorer on the team, but he certainly could win rings as the best player on the team, as long as he had decent 2nd soring option. He'd need a 2nd all star but theres no shame in that. Jordan needed one too.

You think most of the guys in OP were better than Pip. Show me one that got out of the 2nd round without a significantly more stacked team than the 94 Bulls.

If he wasn't under the shadow of MJ, he wouldn't make the ECF as a 2nd year player in 1989, which was an experience that allowed the start of a 3-peat just 2 years later in 1991.

at that time, the multiple-star Celtics/Lakers ruled the day and no one was winning with just 1 star like Pippen, and no one was even TRYING to - so MJ was doing something that only his goat scoring was capable of even trying...

Pippen couldn't get so far so quick with anyone else, or play a bigger role for bigger stakes - no one was beating a #1 SRS, 4-star monster like the 89' Cavs with a 1 man team, and no one was beating the Bad Boys with just 1 other star either.. Only MJ's goat scoring could try these things and ultimately enable the bulls to win goat amounts with a relatively undermanned roster

[AussieSteve]

If he wasn't under the shadow of MJ, he wouldn't make the ECF as a 2nd year player in 1989, which was an experience that allowed the start of a 3-peat just 2 years later in 1991.

at that time, the multiple-star Celtics/Lakers ruled the day and no one was winning with just 1 star like Pippen, and no one was even TRYING to - so MJ was doing something that only his goat scoring was capable of even trying...

Pippen couldn't get so far so quick with anyone else, or play a bigger role for bigger stakes - no one was beating a #1 SRS, 4-star monster like the 89' Cavs with a 1 man team, and no one was beating the Bad Boys with just 1 other star either.. Only MJ's goat scoring could try these things and ultimately enable the bulls to win goat amounts with a relatively undermanned roster

Pip had 1 prime season as first option and in that 1 season he achieved more than what many all time top 50 players achieved as first option in their whole career.*If he had a decade as first option, not under the shadow of MJ, he'd have multiple top 5 MVP finishes, and surely at least a couple of deep playoff runs as the man. Of course he's not winning a championship as the best scorer on the team, but he certainly could win rings as the best player on the team, as long as he had decent 2nd soring option. He'd need a 2nd all star but theres no shame in that. Jordan needed one too.

You think most of the guys in OP were better than Pip. Show me one that got out of the 2nd round without a significantly more stacked team than the 94 Bulls.

[Round Mound]

Pip had 1 prime season as first option and in that 1 season he achieved more than what many all time top 50 players achieved as first option in their whole career.*If he had a decade as first option, not under the shadow of MJ, he'd have multiple top 5 MVP finishes, and surely at least a couple of deep playoff runs as the man. Of course he's not winning a championship as the best scorer on the team, but he certainly could win rings as the best player on the team, as long as he had decent 2nd soring option. He'd need a 2nd all star but theres no shame in that. Jordan needed one too.

You think most of the guys in OP were better than Pip. Show me one that got out of the 2nd round without a significantly more stacked team than the 94 Bulls.

1993-94 of Pippen Thread I Made A While Ago Has Been Eliminated. I Wondery Why?

MJ is the GOAT but he was blessed by playing with:

- The Best Perimeter Defender and Defensive SF Ever
- The Best Creator of Offense-Ballhandlining and Dishing SF of the 90's
- The 1st or 2nd Best (with Grant Hill) Slashing-Driving-Coast to Coast- Finisher and Dunker at the SF position in the 90's
- A Solid Rebounder
- A Good Scorer

22.0 PPG on 49% FG is not bad at all for a 1st option SF.
8.7 RPG a Good Rebounder
5.6 APG a Great Passer
2.9 SPG and 0.8 BPG a GREAT Defender

- 4th In PER
- 7th In Defensive Rating (All Others PFs and Cs)
- 2nd in Plus/Minus (Great TEAM Player)

And a 1st Option Focal Player to Lead The Bulls to 55 Wins (Two Less than with Jordan) and we all now the famous bogous call on a non existant foul during the Knicks vs Bulls Semi Finals in 94: which wen't to 7 games.

1990-98 Pippen Was a Top 10 Player in the Game!

[3ball]

Pip had 1 prime season as first option and in that 1 season he achieved more than what many all time top 50 players achieved as first option in their whole career.

The Bulls obviously didn't win 55 from Pippen's ho-hum stats or cast - they had a 3-peat system in 1994 that Pippen wouldn't have on his own - he's a system player and never did anything without it

*If he had a decade as first option, not under the shadow of MJ, he'd have multiple top 5 MVP finishes, and surely at least a couple of deep playoff runs as the man. [COLOR="Navy"]Of course he's not winning a championship as the best scorer on the team,[/COLOR] but he certainly could win rings as the best player on the team, [COLOR="black"]as long as he had decent 2nd soring option[/COLOR]. He'd need a 2nd all star but theres no shame in that. Jordan needed one too.

Pippen's scoring level isn't normally enough for a 2nd option on a dynasty... infact, the bulls are the only 2-star dynasty ever - MJ's goat scoring enables this... a lesser scorer than MJ would require a 3rd star or more firepower in general

You think most of the guys in OP were better than Pip. Show me one that got out of the 2nd round without a significantly more stacked team than the 94 Bulls.

I agree - the bulls had a 2nd round team that year, based mostly on the 3-peat system, not pippen's ho-hum numbers or cast .. mj elevated this to 3-peat TWICE (91-93 and 96-98)

he was simply worth a 3-peat with any 18 ppg sidekick - if that sidekick had worse D than Pip then MJ might need a slight upgrade defensively at pf or center - whatever gives him about the 7th best defense like they had from 91-93'.. so nothing major

[jlip]

This dumb ass called Penny and Vin Baker small forwards.

Thread should have ended here.