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Old 09-28-2019, 06:50 PM   #1
sdot_thadon
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Default [The Truth About..] Mj's Comp

I guess with the offseason ending soon it's time to dump this info into the wild. I dread making this thread but, I've had a few posters get at me for saying Mj more times than not enjoyed a talent advantage throughout his title runs. This will become a growing data list over time perhaps. Let's take a look at some interesting facts surrounding Michael Jordan's comp:


In his 6 finals runs, of those 24 series the following occured:


ALLSTARS¹

5/24 series or 20.8% of the time the Bulls faced a team with more allstars.

8/24 times or 33.3% of their series Chicago faced a team with less allstars.

11/24 or 45.8% of the time the bulls faced what we'll refer to here as an "equal"⁴ amount of allstars. More on this in the footnotes.


ALL-NBA²

1/24 or 4.1% of the time the Bulls faced a team with more all nba players.

16/24 series 66.6% of the time they faced a team with less all nba players.

7/24 series, or 29.1% of the time they faced teams with "equal"⁴ all nba players.


ALL DEFENSE ³

0/24 series the Bulls faced a team with more all defensive players, 0%

21/24, or 87.5% of series they faces teams with less all defensive players.

3/24 series, or 12.5% of the time they faced teams with "equal"⁴ all defensive players.



But, what about Mj's opposition in the very tough Eastern Conference? In 18 eastern conference series the following occurred:


ALLSTARS¹

4/18 series, 22.2% of the time they faced teams with more allstars.

7/18 series, or 38.8% of the time they faced teams with less allstars.

7/18 series or 38.8% of the time they faced an "equal"⁴ amount of allstars.


ALL-NBA²

0/18 series they faced a team with more all nba players.

13/18 series or 72.2% of the time the faced a team with less all nba players.

5/18 series or 27.7% of the time they faced teams with "equal"⁴ all nba players.


ALL DEFENSE ³

0/18 series they faced a team with more all defensive players.

16/18 series or 88.8% of the time they faced teams with less all defensive players.

2/18 series or 11.1% of the time they faced teams with "equal"⁴ all defensive players.



And what about the finals? In 6 finals series, the following occurred:


ALLSTARS¹

1/6 or 16.6% of the time the Bulls faced a team with more allstars.

1/6 or 16.6% of the series the Bulls faced a team with less allstars.

4/6 series or 66.6% of the time the Bulls faced teams with "equal"⁴ allstars.


ALL-NBA²

1/6 series or 16.6% of the time they faced teams with more all nba players.

3/6 series or 50% of the time they faced teams with less all nba players.

2/6 series or 33.3% of the time they faced teams with "equal"⁴ all nba players.


ALL DEFENSE ³

0/6 series they faced teams with more all defensive players.

5/6 series or 83.3% of the time they faced teams with less all defensive players.

1/6 series or 16.6% of the time they faced teams with "equal"⁴ all defensive players.



Notes:

The goal here was to provide raw data as bias free as possible, it's imperfect as many data sets are because I chose to eliminate subjectivity. And because that's how Ish likes it. All data was compiled from basketball-reference.com. I still have other completed and incomplete data that could be added in the future. The incomplete is things like Srs and net ratings which are easily available to check yourself but perhaps I'll add them to get an even more complete picture.

¹Allstars- It is what it is, allstars are recognized as such. 1 allstar= 1allstar. It's not my job here to tell you Scottie Pippen is better than Hersey Hawkins, so I won't. I don't count anything against a guy for being a reserve or an injury replacement.

²ALL NBA- Similarly i don't attempt to tell you being a 1st team selection is better than a 3rd. An all nba player is an all nba player. The reason for this is there are cases where the better player may be unable to secure a 1st team spot, but I'll leave that up to you.

ALL DEFENSIVE³- See all nba footnote.

⁴"equal"- When I say equal it's in parentheses because it's possible to debate the equalness. Is an aging Stockton really equal to a prime Scottie? Is a 1st team defender equal to a 2nd? Is a 3rd team all nba selection the same as a 1st? I'll leave those answers to the individual, but imo? Equal in this application is more times than not the same as having more....



This pretty much supports my claims from previous threads. Draw whatever conclusions you will from the data. I have compiled splits for the 1st and 2nd 3peat, as well as more post seasons of Mj's career if anyone is curious about the seasons he wasn't crowned champion after it was all said and done.
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Old 09-28-2019, 06:54 PM   #2
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Default Re: [The Truth About..] Mj's Comp

Damn, this is what you call a OC 5* banger

Great use of color coordinating and summarizing synopsis at the end

Bookmarked and saved

Take notes 3ball
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Old 09-28-2019, 06:54 PM   #3
AlternativeAcc.
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Default Re: [The Truth About..] Mj's Comp




90's
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Old 09-28-2019, 06:56 PM   #4
LAmbruh
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Default Re: [The Truth About..] Mj's Comp

Also if you don't mind me asking, can I use the OP to start a hot debate over in RGM and /r/nba


Thanks in advance
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Old 09-28-2019, 07:01 PM   #5
sdot_thadon
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Default Re: [The Truth About..] Mj's Comp

Quote:
Originally Posted by LAmbruh
Also if you don't mind me asking, can I use the OP to start a hot debate over in RGM and /r/nba


Thanks in advance
It was probably better suited for those places anyway. Have fun.
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Old 09-28-2019, 07:04 PM   #6
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Default Re: [The Truth About..] Mj's Comp

5* nothing but unbiased facts

3ball is not going to like this though
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Old 09-28-2019, 07:07 PM   #7
LAmbruh
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Default Re: [The Truth About..] Mj's Comp

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdot_thadon
It was probably better suited for those places anyway. Have fun.
I'll reference your OP and reward you internet clout
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Old 09-28-2019, 07:24 PM   #8
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Default Re: [The Truth About..] Mj's Comp

thought you go a little more in depth but using accolades was a good idea to get rid of subjectivity
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Old 09-28-2019, 07:43 PM   #9
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Default Re: [The Truth About..] Mj's Comp

Quote:
Originally Posted by LAmbruh
Damn, this is what you call a OC 5* banger

Great use of color coordinating and summarizing synopsis at the end

Bookmarked and saved

Take notes 3ball


+1

This post is astounding, nice work to TS. This should hopefully keep that 3ball guy quite for a while. I'm not so sure most didnt know Jordan was playing against very weak opposition but it never hurts to highlight and drive a stake deeper into the hearts of Jordan fans round the world.
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Old 09-28-2019, 07:44 PM   #10
FromDowntown
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Default Re: [The Truth About..] Mj's Comp

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlternativeAcc.



90's


Oh boy them are fightin' words! This whole entire thread is a blow to Jordans fragile 'legacy' if we can call it that
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Old 09-28-2019, 07:59 PM   #11
RealSkipBayless
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Default Re: [The Truth About..] Mj's Comp

Can 3ball muster a response?
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Old 09-28-2019, 08:07 PM   #12
3ball
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Default Re: [The Truth About..] Mj's Comp

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdot_thadon

Comp doh


- Same stats apply to Lebron, and Lebron only overcame 1 talent deficit (2007)

- MJ overcame more talent deficits.. and bigger ones

1) 1989 - the #10 SRS Bulls with 1 all-star beat the #1 SRS team with 3 all-star plus 20/5/5 Ron Harper

2) MJ/Pippen beat 3 HOF's Isiah/Dumars/Rodman and 2 more 3x all-stars (laimberr/aguirre)

3) MJ beat Ewing's superior team and casts in 1989



^^^ those are the documented ones, but the reality is that MJ beat more talented teams in about half his playoff series, including all the Finals from the first 3-peat


Quote:
Originally Posted by FromDowntown

Jordan beat no one

LeBron beat the cream of the crop

^^^ No he didn't - he lost to them, usually with super-teams of his own

Everyone knows that his "not 6, not 7" Heat had the most talent in the league from 2011-2014, and his 2016 Cavs saw their 2nd option demolish the Warriors' 1st option...

In other words, it's his opponents that can complain about facing talent deficits to his colluded, stacked deck teams

Ultimately, Lebron had Big 3's and only faced a talent deficit in 07', 15', and 18'...

17' is debatable and the goat is supposed to make up for differences anyway - the fact that he never did shows he isn't the goat.. the only talent deficit he overcame was the 2007 ECF, and MJ overcame much bigger talent deficits then that - let me know if you need me to specify with all the relevant stats and proof


Quote:
Originally Posted by FromDowntown
Jordan beat no one

LeBron beat the cream of the crop

Take notes
Facing great teams is no excuse for not having a great team yourself that can compete EVENLY - but Lebron is 2-5 against the best teams of the era (Spurs/Warriors), so Lebron failed to compete at an elite standard (let alone a goat standard)
.

Last edited by 3ball : 09-28-2019 at 08:38 PM.
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Old 09-28-2019, 08:40 PM   #13
Turbo Slayer
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Default Re: [The Truth About..] Mj's Comp

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ball



Facing great teams is no excuse for not having a great team yourself that can compete EVENLY - but Lebron is 2-5 against the best teams of the era (Spurs/Warriors), so Lebron failed to compete at an elite standard (let alone a goat standard)
.


Bruh. You serious????? 2-5. Its 3-6.

Lebron is the 2nd GOAT!!!!!!!

WE WINNING THIS WAR BOIS!!

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Old 09-28-2019, 08:44 PM   #14
3ball
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Default Re: [The Truth About..] Mj's Comp

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbo Slayer
Bruh. You serious????? 2-5. Its 3-6.

Lebron is the 2nd GOAT!!!!!!!

WE WINNING THIS WAR BOIS!!

By Lebron's own goat criteria (overcoming talent deficits), Lebron isn't top 10 and Dirk's 2011 is top 3

The only talent deficit Lebron overcame was 2007 ECF, and he only averaged 25 ppg on 45% in that series... Super weak
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Old 09-28-2019, 08:53 PM   #15
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Default Re: [The Truth About..] Mj's Comp

Any attempt to diminish MJ's comp is negated by the fact that Lebron's comp was so bad it enabled him to be in the finals 8 times in a row.

What's sad is that despite that, all he could do was manage 3 rings, 2 of which were the direct result of 2 of the greatest shots in the history of the NBA by teammates.



Another one.

That was too easy.
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