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View Poll Results: Whose performance was worse?
Giannis 19' ECF vs. Champs - 23/14/6 on 44.8 fg.. 23.7% on jumpers 8 57.14%
Lebron 07' Finals vs. Champs - 22/7/6 on 35.6 fg.. 17.9% on jumpers 6 42.86%
Voters: 14. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-18-2019, 07:56 PM   #46
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Default Re: 19' Giannis vs. 07' Lebron

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ball
Similarly, for the Bulls to make the 91' Finals, they had to beat a dynasty that was much more talented and infact favored to 3-peat.
LOL

"The Bulls have little excuse not to beat the Pistons this year. Unlike in their previous three encounters, Chicago has many factors in its favor, like these:

*Home-court advantage. In Jordan's career, the Bulls are 4-0 in series in which they have had the home-court edge. The Pistons have lost five consecutive games in Chicago, including three during last year's playoffs. And the Bulls are undefeated (5-0) at home during the playoffs this year.

*Health. Chicago has not played since last Tuesday; the Pistons just finished off the Celtics on Friday night in Game 6, in overtime by 117-113. Except for the normal bumps and bruises of May, the Bulls are healthy. Jordan is nursing tendinitis in his left knee, but that didn't stop him from averaging 33.4 points in Chicago's second-round playoff series against the 76ers. Bulls forward Horace Grant is bothered by an eye irritation, but he also played well against Philadelphia.

(Meanwhile, the Pistons' training room should have a "no vacancy" sign on it. Although he played brilliantly Friday, All-Star point guard Isiah Thomas is hobbled by a sprained foot, a pulled hamstring and a surgically repaired left wrist that has not fully healed. Thomas did not start the last three games of the Celtics series, and he may not start Sunday. Both Joe Dumars, tendinitis in both knees, and Vinnie Johnson, bruised right shin are playing with nagging injuries.)"
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Old 08-18-2019, 08:09 PM   #47
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Default Re: 19' Giannis vs. 07' Lebron

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigkingsfan
LOL

"The Bulls have little excuse not to beat the Pistons this year. Unlike in their previous three encounters, Chicago has many factors in its favor, like these:

*Home-court advantage. In Jordan's career, the Bulls are 4-0 in series in which they have had the home-court edge. The Pistons have lost five consecutive games in Chicago, including three during last year's playoffs. And the Bulls are undefeated (5-0) at home during the playoffs this year.

*Health. Chicago has not played since last Tuesday; the Pistons just finished off the Celtics on Friday night in Game 6, in overtime by 117-113. Except for the normal bumps and bruises of May, the Bulls are healthy. Jordan is nursing tendinitis in his left knee, but that didn't stop him from averaging 33.4 points in Chicago's second-round playoff series against the 76ers. Bulls forward Horace Grant is bothered by an eye irritation, but he also played well against Philadelphia.

(Meanwhile, the Pistons' training room should have a "no vacancy" sign on it. Although he played brilliantly Friday, All-Star point guard Isiah Thomas is hobbled by a sprained foot, a pulled hamstring and a surgically repaired left wrist that has not fully healed. Thomas did not start the last three games of the Celtics series, and he may not start Sunday. Both Joe Dumars, tendinitis in both knees, and Vinnie Johnson, bruised right shin are playing with nagging injuries.)"

^^^ that's after the season was over and right before playoffs

Im talking heading into the season, the Pistons were favored to 3-peat

Pistons stand pay in pursuit of their 3rd title, Associated Press

"Meanwhile, the Pistons’ second straight dominating season has the rest of the East’s coaches scratching their heads over what to do about it. But everyone concedes Detroit is the favorite to become the first team since the 1959-66 Celtics to win as many as three consecutive championships."

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-...734-story.html
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Old 08-18-2019, 08:27 PM   #48
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Default Re: 19' Giannis vs. 07' Lebron

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Originally Posted by 3ball
^^^ that's after the season was over and right before playoffs

Im talking heading into the season, the Pistons were favored to 3-peat

Pistons stand pay in pursuit of their 3rd title, Associated Press

"Meanwhile, the Pistonsí second straight dominating season has the rest of the Eastís coaches scratching their heads over what to do about it. But everyone concedes Detroit is the favorite to become the first team since the 1959-66 Celtics to win as many as three consecutive championships."

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-...734-story.html
No, it was right before their series.

No one cares about preseason favorites.
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Old 08-18-2019, 08:32 PM   #49
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Default Re: 19' Giannis vs. 07' Lebron

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ball
^^^ that's after the season was over and right before playoffs

Im talking heading into the season, the Pistons were favored to 3-peat

Pistons stand pay in pursuit of their 3rd title, Associated Press

"Meanwhile, the Pistonsí second straight dominating season has the rest of the Eastís coaches scratching their heads over what to do about it. But everyone concedes Detroit is the favorite to become the first team since the 1959-66 Celtics to win as many as three consecutive championships."

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-...734-story.html

Another one.
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Old 08-18-2019, 08:38 PM   #50
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Default Re: 19' Giannis vs. 07' Lebron

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Originally Posted by bigkingsfan
No, it was right before their series.

No one cares about preseason favorites.
The Bulls were favored heading into the 91' ECF, but it took literally 3 years to develop to that point, because they were overcoming an inherent talent deficit - even in 91', the Bulls were the less talented team... The Pistons had 3x all-stars at 5 spots versus the Bulls 2 all-stars... And the HOF count was 3 to 2 in the Pistons favor..

It's no different than a bottom-dweller like the Phoenix Suns developing and overcoming the much more talented Warriors dynasty.. Similarly, for the Bulls to make the 91' Finals, they had to overcome a dynasty that was much more talented and infact favored to 3-peat.

And notice the terminology - the bulls had to "overcome" the dynasty, so it was FINAL, sustainable.. the Pistons weren't coming back.. the bulls had developed a better way to play
.

Last edited by 3ball : 08-18-2019 at 08:44 PM.
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Old 08-18-2019, 08:54 PM   #51
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Default Re: 19' Giannis vs. 07' Lebron

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ball
The Bulls were favored heading into the 91' ECF, but it took literally 3 years to develop to that point, because they were overcoming an inherent talent deficit - even in 91', the Bulls were the less talented team... The Pistons had 3x all-stars at 5 spots versus the Bulls 2 all-stars... And the HOF count was 3 to 2 in the Pistons favor..

It's no different than a bottom-dweller like the Phoenix Suns developing and overcoming the much more talented Warriors dynasty.. Similarly, for the Bulls to make the 91' Finals, they had to overcome a dynasty that was much more talented and infact favored to 3-peat.

And notice the terminology - the bulls had to "overcome" the dynasty, so it was FINAL, sustainable.. the Pistons weren't coming back.. the bulls had developed a better way to play
.

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Old 08-18-2019, 10:48 PM   #52
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Default Re: 19' Giannis vs. 07' Lebron

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigkingsfan
You don't get it

The 88' Pistons beat Bird's Celtics and basically beat Magic's peak Lakers if not for a bad call against Laimbeer.. Then they swept Magic's Lakers in 89'.

In other words, the Pistons were a dynasty and juggernaut that was competing on the same level as Bird and Magic's teams, and beating them.. The Bulls had to overcome this perennial favorite starting with a team of rookies in 1988.. So it doesn't matter whether they overcame them mid-series as an upset or mid-season by playing great - the bottom line is that MJ overcame this more-talented juggernaut and did.

Obviously, MJ has plenty of actual upsets (see 89' playoffs), and almost had one against the peak bad boys in the 90' ECF.. But again, regardless of when the overtaking occurred (mid-season or mid-series), the bulls still had to overcome a more talented juggernaut to win

let's put that into today's terms - imagine that bottom-dweller Phoenix was led by MJ for example - they pick up rookie Ayton in 2015 (88' pip), and are beating the Warriors in three years by 2018 (91')... With just Ayton, and like Tristan Thompson... but killer teamwork and MJ's 34/7/7 (his averages in 91-93 PO)
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Old 08-18-2019, 11:00 PM   #53
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Default Re: 19' Giannis vs. 07' Lebron

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ball
You don't get it

The 88' Pistons beat Bird's Celtics and basically beat Magic's peak Lakers if not for a bad call against Laimbeer.. Then they swept Magic's Lakers in 89'.

In other words, the Pistons were a dynasty and juggernaut that was competing on the same level as Bird and Magic's teams, and beating them.. The Bulls had to overcome this perennial favorite starting with a team of rookies in 1988.. So it doesn't matter whether they overcame them mid-series as an upset or mid-season by playing great - the bottom line is that MJ overcame this more-talented juggernaut and did.

Obviously, MJ has plenty of actual upsets (see 89' playoffs), and almost had one against the peak bad boys in the 90' ECF.. But again, regardless of when the overtaking occurred (mid-season or mid-series), the bulls still had to overcome a more talented juggernaut to win

let's put that into today's terms - imagine that bottom-dweller Phoenix was led by MJ for example - they pick up rookie Ayton in 2015 (88' pip), and are beating the Warriors in three years by 2018 (91')... With just Ayton, and like Tristan Thompson... but killer teamwork and MJ's 34/7/7 (his averages in 91-93 PO)
Magic missed like half the Finals
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Old 08-18-2019, 11:08 PM   #54
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Default Re: 19' Giannis vs. 07' Lebron

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ball
You don't get it
You don't, what the Pistons did prior had nothing to do with 1991.
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Old 08-18-2019, 11:10 PM   #55
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Default Re: 19' Giannis vs. 07' Lebron

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigkingsfan
You don't, what the Pistons did prior had nothing to do with 1991.
Him trying to play off the Pistons were better when the Bulls had by far the two best players in the series AND home court is hilarious
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Old 08-18-2019, 11:21 PM   #56
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Default Re: 19' Giannis vs. 07' Lebron

Nah preseason odds just happen to fit this particular agenda better. He'll abandon it once he needs to prove the bulls were underdogs somewhere in their runs. Note: It's the only year the bulls preseason odds said they weren't the favorites of the 6 runs.
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Old 08-19-2019, 12:04 AM   #57
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Default Re: 19' Giannis vs. 07' Lebron

The original point was that lebron lost in 09' because he had a classic case of getting stats without good team basketball, where the ball stuck and didn't move

The ball stuck for the Cavs, so they underperformed and lost a series that they were supposed to win..

^^^ Southbeach said this was like pre-91' MJ, so i pointed out that MJ was always an underdog pre-91', not a favorite and 1 seed like lebron in 09'..

MJ also never lost as a favorite or with an equal cast like lebron had in 2009.. Nor did he play like lebron as a ball-dominant player and reducer of ball movement

Lebron's back-to-back losses as favored, 60-win 1 seeds are a record and unique to him - consistent losses as the favorite like 2009-2011 demonstrate an inherent flaw in lebron's game.

MJ only lost as the underdog and without strong casts, so none of his losses are "black marks" or demonstrate flaws in his game

Last edited by 3ball : 08-19-2019 at 12:20 AM.
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Old 08-19-2019, 12:13 AM   #58
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Default Re: 19' Giannis vs. 07' Lebron

Quote:
Originally Posted by SouBeachTalents

Sounds like Jordan pre '91

No, Jordan had underdogs pre-91, not big favorites with equal or better talent like 09' lebron


Quote:
Originally Posted by SouBeachTalents

And btw, Giannis averaged 27/11/4 in the first two rounds, not even CLOSE to '09 LeBron


Sure but Giannis' stats are better than what lebron did other years, and Giannis uses his teammates better:

Time of Possession per game

Giannis 19' Playoffs - 4.4 minutes
Lebron. 18' Playoffs - 9.6 minutes

(Time of possession stats don't exist for 09')
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Old 08-19-2019, 12:23 AM   #59
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Default Re: 19' Giannis vs. 07' Lebron

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigkingsfan
You don't, what the Pistons did prior had nothing to do with 1991.
We aren't talking about 91' anyway - Southbeach asked about pre-91'.... And I said that MJ was always an underdog pre-91', so those struggles don't compare to.lebron losing as a favored 1 seed in 09' - MJ never lost as the favorite, 91" or otherwise
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Old 08-19-2019, 02:19 AM   #60
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Default Re: 19' Giannis vs. 07' Lebron

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ball
We aren't talking about 91' anyway

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ball
The Bulls were favored heading into the 91' ECF
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