A discussion on basketball space (not necessarily spacing)

[swagga]

Any good coach (not motivational idiots or your avg high school coach) emphasizes space coverage and space creation and they have been doing it since the 50s (e.g. princeton, triangle, etc). Read space in the sense of player gravity, not necessarily spacing wise, because I'll use the term defensively too. When you think about it space creation and space coverage are the premier values in determining player value in both X and Os and analytics ... space creates and denies team opportunities and it is studied in all team sports (football, soccer, military drills, e-sports, etc).

It's quite easy to see how teams often play against potential actions and not the obvious actions themselves:
- trap curry on a loop to deny the space he creates with his shot
- shadow lebron in the paint to deny the space he creates on the baseline for cutters /bunnies
- forcing a player in foul trouble to take away his space creation skill
- isolating a great wing defender on the other side on offense to minimize his space coverage skill (tony allen, bowen, battier were targeted with this)
- teams switching loop defenders on klay thompson (even if he does stink it up in the playoffs because defenders can get more physical with him imo people underrate his impact in the warriors offense)
- duncan could cover a side just by good positioning

Imo this really sets apart GOATs. Magic/lebron/jordan/shaq/bird/kareem/duncan/hakeem were/are all such space covering/creating assets. And then you have big names which simply didn't provide that tactical flexibility: iverson, kobe, peak tmac, pierce, malone.

This should be discussed more in the basketball community tbh.

[BigKAT]

Any good coach (not motivational idiots or your avg high school coach) emphasizes space coverage and space creation and they have been doing it since the 50s (e.g. princeton, triangle, etc). Read space in the sense of player gravity, not necessarily spacing wise, because I'll use the term defensively too. When you think about it space creation and space coverage are the premier values in determining player value in both X and Os and analytics ... space creates and denies team opportunities and it is studied in all team sports (football, soccer, military drills, e-sports, etc).

It's quite easy to see how teams often play against potential actions and not the obvious actions themselves:
- trap curry on a loop to deny the space he creates with his shot
- shadow lebron in the paint to deny the space he creates on the baseline for cutters /bunnies
- forcing a player in foul trouble to take away his space creation skill
- isolating a great wing defender on the other side on offense to minimize his space coverage skill (tony allen, bowen, battier were targeted with this)
- teams switching loop defenders on klay thompson (even if he does stink it up in the playoffs because defenders can get more physical with him imo people underrate his impact in the warriors offense)
- duncan could cover a side just by good positioning

Imo this really sets apart GOATs. Magic/lebron/jordan/shaq/bird/kareem/duncan/hakeem were/are all such space covering/creating assets. And then you have big names which simply didn't provide that tactical flexibility: iverson, kobe, peak tmac, pierce, malone.

This should be discussed more in the basketball community tbh.

I'll be honest and humble
And say that I don't understand those concepts well enough to discuss it.
But good thread overall. Hopefully you'll find someone here whose understanding of defense is enough to indulge you.

[ClipperRevival]

Any good coach (not motivational idiots or your avg high school coach) emphasizes space coverage and space creation and they have been doing it since the 50s (e.g. princeton, triangle, etc). Read space in the sense of player gravity, not necessarily spacing wise, because I'll use the term defensively too. When you think about it space creation and space coverage are the premier values in determining player value in both X and Os and analytics ... space creates and denies team opportunities and it is studied in all team sports (football, soccer, military drills, e-sports, etc).

It's quite easy to see how teams often play against potential actions and not the obvious actions themselves:
- trap curry on a loop to deny the space he creates with his shot
- shadow lebron in the paint to deny the space he creates on the baseline for cutters /bunnies
- forcing a player in foul trouble to take away his space creation skill
- isolating a great wing defender on the other side on offense to minimize his space coverage skill (tony allen, bowen, battier were targeted with this)
- teams switching loop defenders on klay thompson (even if he does stink it up in the playoffs because defenders can get more physical with him imo people underrate his impact in the warriors offense)
- duncan could cover a side just by good positioning

Imo this really sets apart GOATs. Magic/lebron/jordan/shaq/bird/kareem/duncan/hakeem were/are all such space covering/creating assets. And then you have big names which simply didn't provide that tactical flexibility: iverson, kobe, peak tmac, pierce, malone.

This should be discussed more in the basketball community tbh.

A million bucks you were high when you typed this.

[swagga]

A million bucks you were high when you typed this.

[ralph_i_el]

really good post. I have nothing to add right now, but I wanted to give props.

[MoBe1Kanobi]

Psuedo intellectual post if you think Kobe doesn't create space/gravity for his teammates

Straight dumb shit all dressed up

[Swaggin916]

I agree maximizing and minimizing space are the most important aspects of free flowing offense and defense. It takes discipline, being engaged, and a good grasp of angles.

[G-train]

The NBA is full of poor fundamentals, but its also full of great individual talents and athletes, which mostly make up for it.

Basics of spacing, footwork, screening, defending PnR, rotating, boxing out, etc are lost on many players in the 'worlds best league'.

There won't be much spacing discussion among fans ever, as most NBA teams space poorly.. and 99.9% fans don't care about it, as long as they see some nice crossovers, flashy passes, dunks and some threes.

[warriorfan]

What? Spacing is crucial for an efficient modern offense?

Oh shit, swagga with some groundbreaking shit here...


BTW LeBron is a poor floor spacer when compared to his contemporaries (Bird, Magic, Kobe)

[retaxis]

here we go again

Space means nothing in the playoffs when things get physical. Shumpert and Smith locked up Curry and Klay in the playoffs. They can space out to the locker rooms if they want but that doesn't mean sh1t in the playoffs.
Want to do well in the regular season? Space is good for you to get some fouls and get another contract if your a good floor spacer like courtney lee but in the playoffs you will see that its all about 1 on 1 and why is that? Because thats what makes the mooolah. No one wants to see space and pace, audience and purchasers want to see spectacular!!!

[warriorfan]

here we go again

Space means nothing in the playoffs when things get physical. Shumpert and Smith locked up Curry and Klay in the playoffs. They can space out to the locker rooms if they want but that doesn't mean sh1t in the playoffs.
Want to do well in the regular season? Space is good for you to get some fouls and get another contract if your a good floor spacer like courtney lee but in the playoffs you will see that its all about 1 on 1 and why is that? Because thats what makes the mooolah. No one wants to see space and pace, audience and purchasers want to see spectacular!!!

[swagga]

Psuedo intellectual post if you think Kobe doesn't create space/gravity for his teammates

Straight dumb shit all dressed up

not as much as other all time greats. Kobe was a great player, but his space creation game lacked.

Defensively: his defensive impact was limited to perimeter play, you don't gameplan against him on post defense. Actually his switches on stronger SFs were exploited by the pistons and boston in finals. Kobe can't also act as a weak rim protector like a more explosive jordan or a bigger lebron/magic/bird.

Offensively: the classical "kobe takes the ball brings it down court and he shoots it" isthe straight up opposite of space creation, he just gave the defense a heads up. Don't get me wrong, he was insanely talented to get the stats he got by playing that type of "me first" ball, but from a team strategy standpoint his space creation game wasn't really strong.

So you can see that I have a point here.

[swagga]

What? Spacing is crucial for an efficient modern offense?

Oh shit, swagga with some groundbreaking shit here...


BTW LeBron is a poor floor spacer when compared to his contemporaries (Bird, Magic, Kobe)

reading is hard

[swagga]

here we go again

Space means nothing in the playoffs when things get physical. Shumpert and Smith locked up Curry and Klay in the playoffs. They can space out to the locker rooms if they want but that doesn't mean sh1t in the playoffs.
Want to do well in the regular season? Space is good for you to get some fouls and get another contract if your a good floor spacer like courtney lee but in the playoffs you will see that its all about 1 on 1 and why is that? Because thats what makes the mooolah. No one wants to see space and pace, audience and purchasers want to see spectacular!!!

have you even watched the finals?
also the discussion was about space not just spacing.