School me on Magic and Bird from 79-80 through 82-83

[fpliii]

What were they like before Nixon was traded and when Bird had Fitch as his coach?

Most of the games I've seen of both are from 83-84 on...were their playstyles markedly different? Were they considered legit MVP caliber players at the time?

[Collie]

I didn't get to see them live, but according to Simmons' book, Magic was like a super Pippen in that he did everything. Score when needed, rebound, run the offense. He was more of a point forward when Nixon was still there, and they shared ballhandling duties.

One of the things I remember him saying specifically was that Magic was unique in that he could be the focal point of the team AND a utility guy. He called that version of Magic the best all-around player since Oscar.

Bird was more of less the same player, but wasn't as assertive on the scoring and passing side as he would be later on.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

I didn't get to see them live, but according to Simmons' book, Magic was like a super Pippen in that he did everything. Score when needed, rebound, run the offense.

Magic didnt play defense doe

[Collie]

Magic didnt play defense doe

He was a deadly help defender, and could defend players around his size ,especially during the early to mid 80's, before he got bulky. It was just small, fast PGs that he had a problem with (thus why they got Copper).

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

He was a deadly help defender, and could defend players around his size ,especially during the early to mid 80's, before he got bulky. It was just small, fast PGs that he had a problem with (thus why they got Copper).

Decent post defense against bigger guys. "Deadly help defender" is a gross overstatement thats what i would use to describe Birds defense. Magics wasnt as good and he gambled alot.

He was a below average defender for the most part

[Collie]

Decent post defense against bigger guys. "Deadly help defender" is a gross overstatement thats what i would use to describe Birds defense. Magics wasnt as good and he gambled alot.

He was a below average defender for the most part

Fair enough, though I'd say he was leaning more towards average than outright bad.

I do agree that Bird was underrated as a defender though.

[La Frescobaldi]

Bird was always the better player in those early years.

Johnson came into the League on a great great team which was almost built exactly for him, while the Celtics still had to cement some players and coaching. Thus Magic - in my opinion - got inflation of his reputation because he was playing with Kareem, Worthy, Jamaal Smooth, & McAdoo pretty much right out of the starting gate. No question that he was running that show, though. So Johnson was awesome from the start don't get me wrong. But while the rivalry was ferocious from day 1, few people had Magic over Bird in the early years.

There were real good arguments to be made that one or the other, or both, was already better than Julius Erving.
But, at that time, nobody ever thought either one of them was better than Moses Malone. That was not even close.

The drag of the story later on was that they were both improving at almost exponential rates.... but then Larry Bird jacked up his back.

Bird:
MVP Award Shares
[COLOR="Red"]
1979-80 NBA 0.068 (4)
1980-81 NBA 0.613 (2)
1981-82 NBA 0.661 (2)
1982-83 NBA 0.485 (2)
1983-84 NBA 0.858 (1)
1984-85 NBA 0.978 (1)
1985-86 NBA 0.981 (1) <- Bird wrecked his back in mom's driveway
[/COLOR]1986-87 NBA 0.357 (3)
1987-88 NBA 0.659 (2)
1989-90 NBA 0.005 (10)
1990-91 NBA 0.026 (9)
1991-92 NBA 0.002 (14)

Johnson:
MVP Award Shares
[COLOR="DarkOrange"]
1980-81 NBA 0.026 (11)
1981-82 NBA 0.097 (8)
1982-83 NBA 0.406 (3)
1983-84 NBA 0.401 (3)
1984-85 NBA 0.338 (2)
1985-86 NBA 0.263 (3)[/COLOR]
1986-87 NBA 0.964 (1)
1987-88 NBA 0.635 (3)
1988-89 NBA 0.782 (1)
1989-90 NBA 0.691 (1)
1990-91 NBA 0.518 (2)
1995-96 NBA 0.007 (12)

Bird was always either edging Magic, or was clearly ahead, until he hurt his back in the off-season before the triumphant '86 season. His decline was very noticeable the first couple months that year but he recovered..... but over seasons it slowly got worse and his back was injured more and more as the years went by.

At the time, Bird was the only player not named Russell or Chamberlain to win 3 MVPs in a row - the only guy to do it who was not a Center.

Of course, Jordan added his name later, but they are still the only 2 perimeter guys to ever dominate the league so consistently over such a long stretch of seasons.
Not even LB James nor Magic played at such a high level sustained over seasons like Bird.

[Pointguard]

Decent post defense against bigger guys. "Deadly help defender" is a gross overstatement thats what i would use to describe Birds defense. Magics wasnt as good and he gambled alot.

He was a below average defender for the most part

He was deadly in a way. When Magic stole the ball it was almost always converted on the other end. And Magic lead the league in assist twice in his first three years. Magic rarely ever got torched because the opposing team was always playing on their heels.

Both were rather unique. Bird was like a power forward with range and superb passing skills. He was tough as nails. He stood out most because of his passing and range. Both of them were very smart and had the best instincts. Bird didn't talk much and would have been call socially awkward today. Magic made it look worse. It took like two years for Bird to really get some confidence and even then it would drift at times - some of that I would attribute to his shot sometimes getting away from him. Marques Johnson and Doc. were in his conference and still played the positions better than him.

Magic could morph into all the positions on the court very early in his career. He could be the man or the support system without much adjustments on his part. He had unique control of the game very early on, was the first to balance the floor outside of the PG position. His position was weird with Nixon there. He was a great offensive rebounder - better than even Bird the first four years while not really being in position for offensive rebounds - as he was usually the set up man. Magic stood out because of his passing and team play.

With that said Bird was definitely the better regular season player. Magic was definitely better in the post season. Both stood out and would stand out today.

[Jameerthefear]

Pretty good but not as good as Lebron.

[stanlove1111]

Bird was always the better player in those early years.

Johnson came into the League on a great great team which was almost built exactly for him, while the Celtics still had to cement some players and coaching. Thus Magic - in my opinion - got inflation of his reputation because he was playing with Kareem, Worthy, Jamaal Smooth, & McAdoo pretty much right out of the starting gate. No question that he was running that show, though. So Johnson was awesome from the start don't get me wrong. But while the rivalry was ferocious from day 1, few people had Magic over Bird in the early years.

There were real good arguments to be made that one or the other, or both, was already better than Julius Erving.
But, at that time, nobody ever thought either one of them was better than Moses Malone. That was not even close.

The drag of the story later on was that they were both improving at almost exponential rates.... but then Larry Bird jacked up his back.

Bird:
MVP Award Shares
[COLOR="Red"]
1979-80 NBA 0.068 (4)
1980-81 NBA 0.613 (2)
1981-82 NBA 0.661 (2)
1982-83 NBA 0.485 (2)
1983-84 NBA 0.858 (1)
1984-85 NBA 0.978 (1)
1985-86 NBA 0.981 (1) <- Bird wrecked his back in mom's driveway
[/COLOR]1986-87 NBA 0.357 (3)
1987-88 NBA 0.659 (2)
1989-90 NBA 0.005 (10)
1990-91 NBA 0.026 (9)
1991-92 NBA 0.002 (14)

Johnson:
MVP Award Shares
[COLOR="DarkOrange"]
1980-81 NBA 0.026 (11)
1981-82 NBA 0.097 (8)
1982-83 NBA 0.406 (3)
1983-84 NBA 0.401 (3)
1984-85 NBA 0.338 (2)
1985-86 NBA 0.263 (3)[/COLOR]
1986-87 NBA 0.964 (1)
1987-88 NBA 0.635 (3)
1988-89 NBA 0.782 (1)
1989-90 NBA 0.691 (1)
1990-91 NBA 0.518 (2)
1995-96 NBA 0.007 (12)

Bird was always either edging Magic, or was clearly ahead, until he hurt his back in the off-season before the triumphant '86 season. His decline was very noticeable the first couple months that year but he recovered..... but over seasons it slowly got worse and his back was injured more and more as the years went by.

At the time, Bird was the only player not named Russell or Chamberlain to win 3 MVPs in a row - the only guy to do it who was not a Center.

Of course, Jordan added his name later, but they are still the only 2 perimeter guys to ever dominate the league so consistently over such a long stretch of seasons.
Not even LB James nor Magic played at such a high level sustained over seasons like Bird.

Agreed. Bird was clearly the better player from college until 1987. Bir4d could have been given the MVP award every year until 1987 and it would have been ok.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Well, they both arrived to different situations... Celtics were a hot mess internally, were at an all-time low in their history, and had the 2nd worst record in the league, no superstar caliber player either; Lakers had a pretty good team already, and getting better, with one of the GOAT's still in his prime, Wilkes also at his best, Nixon was a pretty good PG, Cooper was playing for the 1st time after being injured as a rookie, they got rid of Dantley because he didn't play team ball and defense, and got Haywood and Chones, mostly for rebounding and D.
Larry obviously had much more pressure on him and had to be the main man/leader out of the gate, not the same for Magic.

People like to emphasize all that athleticism stuff, that Larry was not a good athlete to add to the legend and whatnot, but Bird was a nice athlete, especially in his 1st years, clear when watching him... He was a pretty mobile 6'9 forward with a tremendous all-around game and cold veins, since his 1st years, already with terrific skill-level and an understanding of the game that few reach at their best, let alone as a rookie.
Larry was extremely gritty and tough as nails, hustled like crazy, as he toned it down with the years to preserve his body more too. Was a better rebounder at 1st, as most.
He established himself as a really good help defender from the jump, and in those 1st years he used to guard opponents' SF's more than afterwards (like Erving and so on) but then Fitch saw that he was better as a help defender roaming around, too.
And he was also taking more jumpers than afterwards, as he developed and went to the post more too, later on.
Larry was also a bit "timid" about shooting the ball at 1st, Fitch was a different coach than KC though (who started to "give" more shots to Larry), but even he had to told Bird to shoot more, at some point, I believe.
He was a great passer since the start but handled the ball less, as he also played alongside Tiny, who liked to hold on to the ball plenty, stagnating the offense at times (as he could not do things as before), it was different with DJ though.
His instant impact was crazy, as he quickly turned the Celtics around and was leading them to a title in his sophomore season. 4th in MVP voting in his 1st year, then always 2nd til he got it, by 1982 he was already being described as the best all-around player in the game.

You can say Nixon was the main PG for the Lakers in the early 80s, but Magic also did it plenty, running the break a lot, playing like a point forward at times, running the offense every now and then too, and Norm also had more of a gunner's mentality than Johnson, but yea, when Magic got there, Nixon was more the PG.
Magic was already a terrific passer out of the gate, that didn't come by chance, in his 1st years he was at his best as a rebounder, even getting close to 10 a game once, he also drove and played in the post more (6'8 with handles and guard mobility, plus lots of skill, stop that...), he wasn't a solid shooter at 1st so teams sagged off plenty til he developed a good spot-up jumper from mid (and even beyond) when open. He also developed into a better m2m defender as his career progressed (even as he was losing speed/quickness) because in the beginning he gambled a lot, that still enabled him to get lots of steals and start the break, due to having good instincts also. He wasn't as assertive and clutch as later on, too. But no doubt that he was already great from the start, his play proved it.

As overall players, while they were both (mostly) healthy, Larry was mostly on top and also had a better peak... Needs to be said.

[Dr.J4ever]

I want to say this very carefully because I know Magic and Bird are on the altars of most posters here.

Very simply, Magic and Bird may have saved the NBA. The NBA was declining, and NHL games were often bigger draws and college basketball Final Fours were called an insulting "the biggest event in all of basketball". When college basketball analysts would discuss the future of a player, very rarely would the NBA be mentioned.

Analysts would say, "he's the best forward in the country" to describe a college player. I always felt insulted by that, I remember. But what can you do? After all, NBA games were often played in arenas with college basketball markings on the floor. They always took precedence over NBA games.

Magic and Bird changed all that. The league recognized a good thing(business wise), and proceeded to hype the Magic/Bird angle beyond recognition.

The truth is both Magic and Bird played with historically stacked teams. I don't think anyone on this board can dispute this. It's really unbelievable how much talent they played with off the bat.

I remember watching the 76ers/Lakers 1982 Finals, and it was deflating how much Doc had to contend with to overcome these Lakers. Obviously, KAJ, but also Wilkes, Nixon, Cooper, Mcadoo off the bench. They ran the ball like crazy, and when things got tough in the half court, Magic would dump a pass down low to the best half court option in NBA history, KAJ's skyhook!

Bird also got into a great situation. Playing with Archibald, and Maxwell, and playing with the greatest low post combo in NBA history in Parish and Mchale. They had the luck of the Irish too when they beat Philly in 7 games in 1981 after falling behind by 3-1 in the ECF, and winning game 7 by 1 point after Philly led with 4 minutes left. Of course, who would be waiting for the Celtics in Bird's first title? The formidable Rocket team of Moses, who bulldozed their way to a .500 record in the regular season.

So what am I saying here? That Bird and Magic weren't great players? Far from it, but they are over hyped.

And to answer specifically FPLII's question, from 1979-1983, Erving was also considered by many as the game's premiere player(all around wise). After 1983, Bird took over, and then, Magic was in the conversation around 1985, and overtook Bird after 1987.

A big caveat in all this is that during that era, centers were often the most dominant players. Players like KAJ and Moses ruled the NBA, but Magic, Bird, and yes, Erving early in the decade, were discussed by media as the best all around players.

[pauk]

Except for the extra intangibles/iq/tuned skills they got later with time (and the incremental decrease in athleticism compared to them in late 80s) there was not to much difference for them individually.... Well, for Magic perhaps... as you may know/not know he actually didnt touch the PG position all the way from his rookie year until Nixon was gone (83-84), Nixon was the starting PG & Magic started SG/SF all the time, but he got that point-forward role, a la Lebron/Pippen.... so essentially he didnt play much different than he did when he got the PG gig 83-84, his mindset was the same offensively, his natural instincts, but because he did start PG his possessions increased and hence so did his productions (well, i mean especially in the APG & highlight flashy/crazy assists department).

[SHAQisGOAT]

Bird also got into a great situation. Playing with Archibald, and Maxwell, and playing with the greatest low post combo in NBA history in Parish and Mchale.

Great situation? Internal problems with the change of owners, Red almost gone, attendances at an all-time low, 29-53 record (2nd worst in the league), all in the season before Bird got there, with the players you've mentioned: Archibald (playing after a tore ACL and a ruptured one), Maxwell (never all-star or all-nba), or Cowens (past his prime)... I fail to see how that's a great situation. He also had major pressure on his shoulders, as some saw him as a savior and most doubted him, and he had to be the leader and main-man from the get-go, with no superstar caliber player around him.

Bird quickly turned them around though, with amazing instant impact (just like in college) and they got the best record while almost making the Finals, in his 1st season; then Cowens was gone and they got Parish (McHale wasn't playing much at 1st), who was already 27 and never viewed as all that (not an all-star or all-nba before), and Larry led them to the championship in his sophomore season... Then because of all of that and more, people usually say he walked into a great situation, when that couldn't be further from the truth. Plus many of his teammates names mentioned, he "made" those names what they are now.

Like I've said, McHale didn't play much at 1st only started his prime around 1985, peaking in 1987, then succumbing to injuries later on that same year...
Even in their 2nd championship run, in the post-season neither Kevin or Parish averaged more than 15 PPG, while shooting below 50% combined, as Larry led the team in points, rebounds, assists, steals, FG% and FT%, all the way to the title vs some great teams. People forget stuff like that though.

[Shep]

Bird was always the better player in those early years

magic was easily better than bird in 1980, 1982, and 1983