The History of Lebron's Finals

[LAZERUSS]

From another post in another topic...but it really deserves it's own thread.

Interesting reading.

The first article covers every one of Lebron's Finals' games up thru game four of the 2014 Finals (and he would follow that up with a zero-impact effort in the clinching five blowout loss.)

http://thesportspost.com/lebron-jame...#axzz4J905enVG




Then, we can see just how "clutch" LeChoke was in his '15 Finals in this article...

http://www.espn.com/blog/statsinfo/p...espnapi_public


Think about that. Aside from his 2012 Finals, he was choking in every other Finals in his career.

And this year was no different, either.

In game four he led his team down the toilet in the last minute, by repeatedly driving uncontested to the hoop in three straight possessions, and in which his team trailed by nine in each. He proved he would rather pad his stats than actually try to win the game with a three.

Luckily for him, the NBA suspended Green in a game five, which ultimately cost the Warriors a 4-1 series win. On top of that, the Warriors had key injuries to their lone rim-protector, and the Lebron-stopper, who had a history of completely shutting LeChoke down.

And even in the game seven WIN...LeChoke went 0-4 from the field in the last 4:14, and had his ass saved by Clutch Kyrie.

Remove Kyrie's game winner, and Ray Allen's miracle, and we would be reading about Mr. "1-7."

[TommyGriffin]

Good points but almost all of them have already been hashed over by warriorfan in great detail.

[K Xerxes]

Why have you suddenly gone from being reasonable about LeBron to trolling him incessantly since his finals win?

[Nilocon165]

Jesus Christ that's Jason Bourne

[K Xerxes]

Nba knows lebron is a choker. Thats why the only way he could win is through refs

Do you think LeBron should be respected? I feel like you haven't stated your views on this subject clearly enough.

[SouBeachTalents]

Tell me about Wilt's clutch or memorable Finals moments. Does he honestly even have one?

[ArbitraryWater]

Why have you suddenly gone from being reasonable about LeBron to trolling him incessantly since his finals win?

he does that with pretty much everyone.. just argues what isnt in in whatever thread he is, going against the grain every time.

[SamuraiSWISH]

2016 might be getting over hyped because of the overrated gimmicky opponent, with inflated regular season record due to weak league. And people underrate Kyrie's contributions. They were lucky Green was suspended (though he brought it on himself) ... And it was really 2 games where LeBron was actually great. And in one of them, game 5, Kyrie's scoring exhibition on a larger, quality defender was visibly more impressive. All things considering it's overrated performance individually, but it was still very impressive.

As was his 2015 considering he had no help.

Either way you cut it, he's better than Wilt. Ranking his Finals individually, not just team success:

1) '16 - Great
2) '12 - Good
3) '15 - Good
4) '13 - Decent
5) '14 - Average (numbers lie here)
6) '07 - Bad
7) '11 - Pitiful

[aj1987]

What a meltdown. OP stans the GOAT statpadder and mentally, the weakest player of all time. I can picture him crying and fuming while trying to defend his lover, but it's a futile attempt. Aptly named the big dipper.


.511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chamberlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

Default NBA choking rating

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Ilt's scoring drop off from the RS to the PO's:

'60 - -4.4
'61 - -1.4
'62 - -15.4
'63 - Missed the PO's despite averaging 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8%
'64 - -2.2
'65 - -5.4
'66 - -5.5
'67 - -2.4
'68 - -0.6
'69 - -6.6
'70 - -5.2 (Injured his knee, so not really gonna count this year)
'71 - -2.4
'72 - -0.1
'73 - -2.8

Those numbers would translate to ~15 PPG in the '90's, BTW. Playing in a weak ass era definitely helped boost his stats.


Ilt's FG% from the RS to the PO's:

1960 - +3.5
1961 - -4.0
1962 - -3.9
1964 - +1.8
1965 - +2.0
1966 - -3.1
1967 - -10.4
1968 - -6.1
1979 - -3.8
1970 - -1.9
1971 - -9.0
1972 - -8.6
1973 - -17.5

I'll give Ilt Chokerlain some credit though. He definitely is in the top 15-20 range. Right there with Barkley and KG.

[LostCause]

That sportspost page says some interesting shit and a lot of fair and true shit, but none of it is really anything an objective fan wouldn't already have seen or concluded and I'm sure if you had someone analyze any other Top-10 players Finals on a game-by-game basis you'd see plenty of ups and downs

Lebron is very unique though in that he has one of it not the lowest lows (Mavs series) yet also one of if not the highest highs (16 Warriors series). Love em or hate em, just don't forget to enjoy the ride either way

[LAZERUSS]

Tell me about Wilt's clutch or memorable Finals moments. Does he honestly even have one?

Aside from crushing a PEAK Thurmond in the '67 Finals...the same Nate who held a PEAK Kareem to a three straight Playoff series of .486, .405, and .428 shooting...and in KAJ's greatest regular season...outscored and outshot him in the playoffs.

And how about this...

http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1967.htm

[QUOTE]S.F. rallied with a 6-0 run to take the lead 115-114 on a Barry 17-footer. Chamberlain then hit 2 free throws to make it 116-115 Philadelphia and followed it up with a dunk of the offensive boards to make it 118-115. It was 122-116 with 2:16 to play when King hit a jumper to cut the lead to 4. Thurmond blocked a shot and Barry converted the ensuing fastbreak to cut it to a 2-point defecit. Cunningham hit a free throw but Barry answered with 2 of his own to make it 123-122 with 0:46 left. The 76

[LAZERUSS]

Continued...

Of course...

Of course, the REAL Finals in Chamberlain's prime, the decade of the 60's, involved the Celtics vs. WILT. In Wilt's prime, he was in the Eastern Conference in seven of those 10 seasons...and faced the GOAT Dynasty in either his first, or second round, in SIX of them. Aside from his '69 season, when his incompetent COACH chose West and Baylor's offense over Wilt's (and was basically run out of town immediately after that Finals), Wilt played in the West in two more seasons. In one, his team was so bad that they didn't make the playoffs (and all Chamberlain could do was average 45 ppg, and lead the league in 15 of the 22 statistical categories of the time.)

So, again, excluding '69, when his coach preferred losing over having Wilt lead his team to a title...Chamberlain faced a Western Division foe exactly...ONCE...in the entire decade of the 60's. Not coincidently, all he could do was average 39 ppg, 23 rpg, and shoot .559 from the floor (in an NBA that shot .420 in that post-season), which included one game of 50 points, and a clinching game seven of 39-26 with 10 blocks. ONE SERIES.

How did a prime Wilt fare against the CELTICS in that decade? Again, let's forget the '69 Finals (in which he still outplayed Russell)...and he had post-seasons of 22-25-7 (on an injured leg in a seven game series); 22-32-10; 28-30; 29-28; 30-31; 31-27; and 34-27.

Furthermore, had Wilt been in the WD in his prime, he likely would have faced the Lakers several times in the WD playoffs. Russell built his post-season stats by feasting on the "center-less" Lakers in that decade. And yet, Chamberlain never had the opportunity to face them even ONCE! How dominant was Wilt against LA in the decade of the 60's? He faced them 86 times, and hung 42 40+ point games against them, including 19 of 50+, seven of 60+, and even two of 70+ (which included a 78-43 game.)

As for "pace"...hmmm, in Wilt's highest scoring Finals, he averaged 29 ppg on 24 FGA (and again, against RUSSELL.) How about Lebron's highest scoring Finals? 36 ppg on...33 FGA per game...and with single-coverage against a role player coming off the bench. Had Wilt taken 33 FGAs (and adjusted his already .517 FG% to '15 post-season levels...or .600), and he would have averaged 20 FGM...or 40 ppg, just on his FGAs. Then, can you imagine Boston single-covering a prime Wilt with a 35 year old Lovellette in his last season? Hell, a prime Chamberlain was pouring in 50+ ppg games against a prime Clyde.

And now, let's move a prime Lebron from his Eastern Conference, to the Western Conference in his career, shall we? Well, luckily for LeChoke, he would never have made the Finals in '07, nor '11, perhaps the two worst ever by a Top-10 player in his prime. Of course, he couldn't even get to the Finals in the weak ECF in '08 and '09, so he wouldn't have sniffed them in the West, either. That leaves '12, '13, '14, '15, and '16.

2012...a breeze to the Finals in the East. Didn't face one team in the ECF that would have beaten a WCF playoff team. Still, his team did beat the Thunder in the Finals...so I will give that to him.

2013. Who knows? One thing, though...his team wouldn't have gone 66-16 in the West. As it was, the East was a POS conference in which no team was close to the Heat. And yet they STILL struggled mightily against a Pacer team that would have been at the bottom of the West in the post-season. Then, they were a miraculous Allen shot away from losing to the Spurs in six games.

2014. Would never have come close to the Finals. The Spurs annihilated them in the Finals.

2015. Would never have sniffed the Finals, and were wiped out by the Warriors in the Finals.

2016. People forget that the Warriors were up 3-1, in a series in which 3" was a passive bystander. Then, a suspension to their best all-around player, an injury to their rim protector, and an injury to Iggy...the same role player who held Lebron to 39% shooting in the Finals. BTW, in their two regular season H2H's, a HEALTHY Iguodala held Lebron to 20.5 ppg on a .404 FG%.

Furthermore...the '16 Cavs had a cakewalk to the Finals. Put them in the WC, where they would have faced two of... either the Spurs, Warriors, or Thunder (the same Thunder team that dominated a much healthier Warrior team in the first four games of the WCF's, and were within a couple of minutes of beating them two more times)...and I seriously doubt that the Cavs would have made it thru that gauntlet to the Finals.

As for MVPs...interesting that Wilt "only' won four MVPs in the '60's, too. He was beaten out by Russell in '61 and '62...and yet was voted First Team All-NBA over Russell in those two seasons. BTW, compare Russell's team success, and Russell's stats ...with Wilt's team success, and Wilt's team success in BOTH '60 and '62...and explain to me how Russell won the MVP in '62, and not in '60, when a rookie Wilt ran away with it. The ONLY thing that changed from '60 to '62...was that Wilt was even far greater in his '62 season.

Russell also won the '65 MVP...BUT, in the EDF's, Chamberlain just CRUSHED him in EVERY facet of the game. Wilt took the same roster that had gone 34-46 the year before...to a game seven, one point loss, against a Celtic team that was it's peak (going 62-18.) In that series, Wilt outscored Russell, 30-16 ppg; outrebounded Russell, 31-25 rpp; outshot Russell from the field .555 to .440; outshot him from the line, .583 to .472; outshot him in TS%, .565 to .450; and even outblocked him in their known games, 35-22.

The reality was, Chamberlain was the best player in the league right from his first game (43-28-17 BTW)...and the MVP in his rookie season...thru the mid-60's when he ran away with the MVP three straight seasons, and even into Russell's last season (and Wilt's last season before he shredded his knee)...when Chamberlain dominated all three of the centers who finished ahead of him in the MVP balloting (Unseld, Reed, and Russell.)


Incidently, Wilt won a FMVP averaging 19 ppg, and would surely have won a FMVP in '67, had the award existed, in a Finals in which he averaged 18 ppg (and an opposing player played like Lebron in the '15 Finals... 41 ppg on a .408 FG%.)

Furthermore, put a prime Wilt in the Finals against the likes of a washed up Rik Smits in his last season; or a 35 year old Mutombo, whom Shaq was already to bloody to a pulp; or a never was in the 6-11 MaCulloch (who had a 4 year year career in which he averaged 6 ppg); or the complete bust in Erik Dampier....and well, needless to say that he would have put up staggering numbers.

[LAZERUSS]

Continuing...

The REALITY was...Wilt DOMINATED that series. In fact, one of the GOAT Finals.

As was his '67 Finals, when again, he "only" averaged 18 ppg...BUT just crushed a peak Thurmond in every facet of the game...en route to leading the Sixers to a title. Oh, and in that same series, Rick Barry averaged 41 ppg, but on a "Lebron-like" .408 FG%. Clearly, Wilt would have won the FMVP had the award existed.

Of course, only Chamberlain and Russell could so thoroughly dominate in the post-season without scoring.

How much IMPACT did Wilt have at the DEFENSIVE end in the post-season? Let's start with rim protection, shall we? Tim Duncan is the "official" all-time playoff block leader, with 568 in his 251 post-season games. Well, in Julizaver's research (a contributor at nabstats.net)...he found Wilt's block totals in 81 of Chamberlain's 160 playoff games...or roughly half. Guess what? 590 blocked shots! More blocked shots in 81 games, than Timmy had in 251. And before someone claims "era" against Wilt. A 35 year old Wilt had a known 33 blocked shots in four of the six games of the '72 WCF's....including FIFTEEN of Kareem's. He also averaged 7.4 bpg in the Finals that year, as well.

But how about H2H defense, you ask? He held Russell to a playoff series of .399, .397, .386, and .358. He held Thurmond to playoff series of .392, .373, and .343. He held Bellamy to playoff series of .450 and .421 (in a season in which Bellamy shot .541 against the league.) Oh, and in his two playoff series against a peak Kareem... .481 and .457 (including .414 in the last four games of that series) in seasons in which KAJ shot .577 and .574 against the league.

Rebounding? Forget the supposed "inflated" totals. Chamberlain played in 29 post-season series, and was never outrebounded by an opposing center in ANY of them,...which included 18 series against HOF centers. In the ONE in which he was outrebounded, it was by PF Jerry Lucas with a 21.0 rpg to 20.0 rpg margin. However, when the two met as CENTERS in the '72 Finals...a 35 year old Wilt, playing 47 mpg, outrebounded the 31 year old Lucas, who was playing 46 mpg...by a 23.2 to 9.8 margin!

Not only was Chamberlain outrebounding these guys, he was SLAUGHTERING them. He had post-season series against Reed in which he outrebounded him by 14 rpg. Against Thurmond by 7 rpg. Against Russell by margins of 5, 6, and even 9 rpg. SERIES!

Clearly, Wilt was the GOAT post-season rebounder. Oh, and for those that love to bash his Finals scoring...Wilt is the all-time Finals leader at 24.6 rpg.

BTW, a 36 year old Wilt, in his last post-season, and covering 17 games...averaged 22.5 rpg, in a post-season NBA that averaged 50.6 rpg per team. The next highest since? 18.3...by Garnett, in a 3 game series.

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

Continuing...

Continuing...

Wilt's "scoring" in the post-season. First of all, no other all-time great sacrificed as much of their offense, as Wilt did in his career. I find it amusing that the "bashers" always use 30-22-18 (actually, 30-23-19) without CONTEXT.

How about this? Do you think Phil Jackson would have asked MJ to become a facilitator, and cut his scoring by 10 ppg or more? And do you think Jackson would have asked Shaq to play the HIGH POST? Yet, Wilt's COACHES asked Chamberlain to do both. And he complied.

A "scoring" Wilt averaged 33 ppg in his 52 post-season games...30 of which came against RUSSELL. In those 52 games, he had 11 of 40+...or 21%. He had post-seasons of 28 ppg, 29 ppg, 33 ppg, 35 ppg, 35 ppg, and 37 ppg. He had post-season series of 37 ppg, 37 ppg, 39 ppg, and 39 ppg. He had FOUR games of 50+, including THREE in "must win" games. He had "must win" playoff games against RUSSELL of 46 and 50 points. He had a "must win" Finals game of 45 (on 20-27 shooting, with 27 rebounds.)

Some idiots here have used Wilt's '67 playoff run as an example to rip his scoring. All Chamberlain did in that run, was put up series of 28-27-11 .617; 22-32-10 .556; and 18-29-7 .560. In the very first two games of the playoffs he scored 41 and 37 points (on a combined 35-54 shooting ...or 65%.) CLEARLY, had he NEEDED to, he could have scored FAR more. As it was, in his series clinching Final against Russell, he outscored Russell 29-4 (which is deceptive, since he had 22 at the half when the game was still close); outrebounded Russell, 36-21; outshot Russell, 10-16 to 2-5; outassisted Russell, 13-7; and even took the time to swat 7 shots. In the '67 Finals, he outscored Thurmond in five of the six games; outrebounded him in five of the six games; outassisted him five of the six games; and outshot him in EVERY game (and by a staggering .560 to .343 overall.) In the clinching game six win, Chamberlain outscored Thurmond by a 24-12 margin, outrebounded him by a 23-22 margin, and outshot him by an 8-13 to 4-13 margin.

Even after his knee injury in the '69-70 season, Wilt came back to hang the only 20-20- .600 Finals in NBA history ( 23.2 ppg, 24. rpg, and on a .625 FG%.)

I already mentioned it, but he outplayed Kareem in their '71 WCF's, and then by ALL accounts, outplayed him again in their '72 WCF's H2H. Time Magazine went so far as to claim that Wilt DECISIVELY outplayed KAJ. BTW, in their two series clinching H2H games... Wilt outshot KAJ from the floor by a .545 (18-33) to .383 (23-60) margin.

Oh, and in his six Finals, he collectively outshot his opposing centers (all in the HOF BTW)...by a .559 to .439 margin.


And for the idiots that claim that Wilt was a "choker"...

in his 23 "must win" playoff games, all he did was average 31.1 ppg (just behind Lebron's 32.6 and MJ's 31.3 ppg), with 26.4 rpg, 4.2 apg, and on a .540 FG%. In his 37 "must win" and "series clinching" games... 29.5 ppg, 26.5 rpg, 4.2 apg, and on a .546 FG% (in leagues that shot about .435 in that same span.) All while destroying his opposing centers in every facet of the game.

The bottom line, though, was that Wilt did what was asked of him by his coaches...even against his better judgement (see the '69 Finals.)

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

Continuing...

Had a prime Wilt faced the likes of a washed-up Smits in his last season; a 35 year old Mutombo whom Shaq was allowed to bloody to a pulp; a never was career 6 ppg scorer in MacCulloch; and a complete bust in Dampier...in four Finals, ... and his "18 ppg Finals" would have approached 30-40 ppg in those four Finals alone.

BTW, when I mentioned "bloody to a pulp"...I wasn't kidding...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ3FXLyNFew

I counted at least FOUR offensive fouls in that sequence alone, as well as a full-blown charge.

BTW, regarding Lebrons' three rings (and Wilt's two)...Lebron was one Ray Allen 3pter, and one Kyrie 3pter away from "1-7." Meanwhile, Chamberlain was one bad inbounds pass, and one stolen dribble by two teammates...away from four rings. TWO shots, and TWO turnovers away from Chamberlain holding a 4-1 margin over Lebron.