Kobe - the only member of the 2000 All-Defensive team that was a bad defender

[BlackVVaves]

Not dismissing, nor affirming your premise OP, though its clear where your agenda lies, per your post history.

But just came to say this. No matter how much time feeble fans like yourself dedicate their days despising the likes of Kobe, LeBron, ect. and their rabid fanbases...and no matter how much your kind vows to diminish their value to the basketball community, the truth is that it's all obsolete to the highest degree.

Why? Because as long as legends, both past, present, and future talent that grew up idolizing those players continue to reiterate their greatness through their high praise, and thus continue to perpetuate their legacy through the walls of time, they will remain renowned monarchs in the kingdom of basketball enthusiasts.

It will take several...several generations of transcendent talent to dethrone the likes of Kobe, LeBron, and other polarizing figures in the game from their place in history. To erase them from our memories, or to revise history like posters like you so desperately attempt around here.

So carry on with your crusade, it's more bemusing than anything really. Just know that in the grand scheme of things, what you or I think doesn't matter, nor the disoriented sketch that advanced statistics portray without visual context. The media, coaches, former players, and current players will continue to herald the likes of Kobe and LeBron as All Time greats. And as long as they do, the grand efforts of devoted detractors like yourself will continue to prove to be meaningless.

**shrugs**

[Doranku]

Not dismissing, nor affirming your premise OP, though its clear where your agenda lies, per your post history.

But just came to say this. No matter how much time feeble fans like yourself dedicate their days despising the likes of Kobe, LeBron, ect. and their rabid fanbases...and no matter how much your kind vows to diminish their value to the basketball community, the truth is that it's all obsolete to the highest degree.

Why? Because as long as legends, both past, present, and future talent that grew up idolizing those players continue to reiterate their greatness through their high praise, and thus continue to perpetuate their legacy through the walls of time, they will remain renowned monarchs in the kingdom of basketball enthusiasts.

It will take several...several generations of transcendent talent to dethrone the likes of Kobe, LeBron, and other polarizing figures in the game from their place in history. To erase them from our memories, or to revise history like posters like you so desperately attempt around here.

So carry on with your crusade, it's more bemusing than anything really. Just know that in the grand scheme of things, what you or I think doesn't matter, nor the disoriented sketch that advanced statistics portray without visual context. The media, coaches, former players, and current players will continue to herald the likes of Kobe and LeBron as All Time greats. And as long as they do, the grand efforts of devoted detractors like yourself will continue to prove to be meaningless.

**shrugs**

Every time I finish reading one of your posts, I'm convinced that your homepage is a thesaurus.

[9erempiree]

This is my last post regarding this argument and I discussed these kind of arguments before with PER.

We quickly dispelled the PER argument. Nobody knows what those numbers are.

This is the same thing here. It is a parallel argument.

Same sh1t sandwich but packaged differently.

It would be too easy of an ownage to warrant me to do it all over again. This isn't 2007.

[Artillery]

The media, coaches, former players, and current players will continue to herald the likes of Kobe and LeBron as All Time greats. And as long as they do, the grand efforts of devoted detractors like yourself will continue to prove to be meaningless.

**shrugs**

This topic doesn't concern Lebron and no one mentioned him before you did. In any case, Lebron has always been rated as a positive defender by RAPM. Don't know why you're lumping him in with a historically bad defender like Bryant.

Besides, there's no agenda with this topic. I just find it strange that Kobe's been given a reputation as a good defender that's never been backed up by the stats. Nearly every other good defender thoughout the 2000s comes out as a positive defender on these lists. Kobe's the only one that doesn't. It's becoming a trend that quite damning for Bryant. Also, it's not like RAPM rates him as a bad player overall. His offensive metrics are always impressive. The problem comes when his fanbase labels him a great two-way player - the stats say otherwise. There's no shame in being just a fantastic offensive player BTW. Barkley and Malone are respected all-time greats and neither played much D either.

[Combat Wombat]

Are you actually gonna post anything about the game? I know that you're an alt, but an alt dedicated to just insult people? Pathetic.

That depends. Are you going to pretend that you aren't a bandwagon Heat fan?

Alt? I will happily bet you that this is my first account EVER on this forum. Ask Jeff to do an IP check if I'm an alt of any poster on this forum.

Can you say the same, you lying little rodent?

[BlackVVaves]

Every time I finish reading one of your posts, I'm convinced that your homepage is a thesaurus.

former Journalism/English major before switching to Business Marketing.

[Dresta]

Kobe has got a ton of joke NBA All defensive selections.

When he got 1st team over Wade in 09 i was like

[BlackVVaves]

This topic doesn't concern Lebron and no one mentioned him before you did. In any case, Lebron has always been rated as a positive defender by RAPM. Don't know why you're lumping him in with a historically bad defender like Bryant.

Besides, there's no agenda with this topic. I just find it strange that Kobe's been given a reputation as a good defender that's never been backed up by the stats. Nearly every other good defender thoughout the 2000s comes out as a positive defender on these lists. Kobe's the only one that doesn't. It's becoming a trend that quite damning for Bryant. Also, it's not like RAPM rates him as a bad player overall. His offensive metrics are always impressive. The problem comes when his fanbase labels him a great two-way player - the stats say otherwise. There's no shame in being just a fantastic offensive player BTW. Barkley and Malone are respected all-time greats and neither played much D either.

I mentioned LeBron because he falls in the same category. Many of you make a hobby out of diminishing the same 2-3 players' value. Every. Single. Day.

[DMV2]

former Journalism/English major before switching to Business Marketing.

Why didnt you stick with the former? Money?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Everybody on the All-Defensive Second Team that year were ALSO rated as good defenders according to RAPM:

2000 NBA All-Defensive Second Team RAPM(RPI):

3.47 - Eddie Jones
1.27 - Shaq
0.76 - Kidd
0.44 - Pippen
0.37 - Cliff Robinson

Solid numbers for Shaq. Along with being the best offensive player in the league, he was also the defensive anchor on the Lakers.

It's starting to look like Kobe never was an impactful defender at ANY point in his career and that his all-defensive selections were undeserved. It's no coincidence that he's the only player on either team that had a negative impact on D. With advanced stats like RAPM becoming more and more commonplace, Kobe's reputation as a good defender is going to diminish in the coming years.

So you are telling me the difference between Shaq and Garnett/Mourning > young Kobe and prime Gary Payton defensively

[BlackVVaves]

Why didnt you stick with the former? Money?

Partially, but it was primarily because I garnered a passion for integrated marketing communications and brand management. It's an art form to me, and I truly love it. There's a certain rush I get from conceptualizing an idea, contributing to the process of developing it, and then seeing the campaign materialize into something tangible.

[Artillery]

So you are telling me the difference between Shaq and Garnett/Mourning > young Kobe and prime Gary Payton defensively

Your analogy doesn't amount to much when the numbers indicate Shaq, Garnett, Mourning all having more value as defenders than 2000 Payton or Bryant. A defensive anchor will always bring more value than a defensive wing.

In any case, I would refrain from comparing Bryant to Payton. At least Payton had an excuse. He was conserving energy for offense - the numbers reflect this too. Career year in scoring and a huge impact in offensive RAPM(+5.75). At the very least, he at least tried on defense. Not a huge difference maker but still noticeable. Besides, Payton's prime as a defensive player was probably in the mid-90s(when he won DPOY) and RAPM numbers don't exist that far back yet.

Kobe doesn't have an excuse for his shitty defensive numbers though. His offensive numbers were good(+2.08) but not good enough that he could afford to slack off on D. His peers at the shooting guard position were all posting better offensive numbers than him:

+5.75 Payton
+5.20 Carter
+4.17 Ray Allen
+3.22 Pierce

If anything, this tells us 2000 Kobe was incredibly overrated. He wasn't even top 3 in his position and a negative factor on defense. This makes Shaq's achievement that year even more impressive. Dominated the NBA while carrying a Lakers squad full of role players to a championship.

[ImKobe]

OP is a homosexual

[jzek]

Was he always a one-way player?

Yes.

[ArbitraryWater]

Damnnn, it's so wierd how every advanced statistic is AGAINST Kobe, right?

What's the problem this time, Kobe diehards? What is wrong with the stat this time?

It's just a coincedence, like always... meaningless stat.

WATCH THE GAMES BRAH