25-6' year old jordan versus same age lebron...

[Micku]

People were complaining quite a bit about the ugly style of play in the late 90's/early 00's, ratings were down iirc and I remember people questioning whether fans really wanted to see a more defensive-oriented game, that's why people made such a big deal about the Suns.

The game started changing slowly, probably starting with the Pistons in the late 80's and the early/mid 90's Knicks also continued this change and by '98-'04, the game was tougher defensively and "uglier"

I remember that. I remember the media saying that they think more basketball teams should play more uptempo basketball. And there were some people who were complaining about the offense in the early 00s. I think they were complaining about the fundamentals and shot selection and etc. You can still see people complain about it now and make comments here and there, but around the early 00s, the league didn't have a lot of uptemp b-ball I think. Maybe because the defense got better? I dunno.

The Pistons did influence how to play defense against someone like Jordan. Knicks followed up on that. Then around the mid 90s, they started to limit hand-checking and a little physical defense. I think Doc Rivers retired because of that, saying that they are not allowed to defend anymore. Teams started to follow the college basketball style of how to defend without fouling, and I think that also set another mark on how the league started to defend.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Kobe's numbers dropped significantly in '04 and '05 and then rose so much in '06. I believe it was all of the court stuff as well as injuries and the coaching changes which were another distraction.

Well, in 04 the whole league sucked at the offense side. It could be because it was a strange year for everybody or that the defense was very good. It could be both. The pacing of the game was similar of the mid-late 90s, so it had to be either or both. The FG% and the PPG were low. The league average FG% was .439% and the PPG were 93.4. I think in 04, the FG% was probably the lowest it's been in decades (not counting the short season of 98-99), but I could be wrong.

For Kobe specially, he had distractions off the court, the big four with Shaq, Malone, Payton, and him. Plus the whole weirdness of either crappy offense and epic defense that year.

[magnax1]

I've never heard of them upping weights at the pre-draft camp, that's different than the NBA's official listings. Players often measure shorter at the camp than the NBA lists them, so Lebron's weight from the camp is most likely legit, meaning he's easily 260 now.

Kobe's 6'7" listing was from the NBA, not the pre-draft camp. And they very rarely update weights, everyone knew that late 90's/early 00's Shawn Kemp was over 300 pounds yet he wasn't listed at it.

I doubt it has much to do with talent as there were plenty of talented players from '98-'04. Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, KG, Jordan(in '98, '02 and '03), Malone, C-Webb, Gary Payton, Dirk, Grant Hill, T-Mac, Zo, Iverson, Paul Pierce, VC, Ray Allen ect. And I definitely don't buy that the average player has gotten worse over time.

Look at the average defensive ratings each year(points per 100 possessions)

1998- 105
1999- 102.2
2000- 104.1
2001- 103
2002- 104.5
2003- 103.6
2004- 102.9

And now '92-'97

1992- 108.2
1993- 108
1994- 106.3
1995- 108.3
1996- 107.6
1997- 106.7

I don't know, I'd definitely say that the league in 92 was more talented from top to bottom then after 2000. A lot of the good teams were basically the same teams that were top tier in the late 90's, only declined from age, a lot of the best players like TMac and AI were stuck on terrible teams, and there just weren't a lot of teams that really took a leap into the top tier teams. LA, Portland for a year, and Sacramento. The Spurs were good, but they still declined from 99 until 2003 when they jumped a little and the Lakers declined a little. 2004 the league started to pick up a little, but I don't think it really has recovered completely until the past couple of years.
I could be wrong about all of it, opinions usually differ vastly on this sort of stuff, but I think the drop in talent after 96 or so was really the largest part of the statistics dropping down from 98 onwards, because I don't see a large difference in the defenses in 94 to 04.

[OldSchoolBBall]

From a post of mine on another board regarding Jordan's 1989 season (age 25-26):

During the the first 4 months of the season Jordan was averaging 33.6 ppg/55.4% FG/64% TS and the last 2 months of the season, after being moved to PG (25 games), he was averaging 30.4 pts/9.3 reb/11.2 ast/2.5 stl/1.0 blk/52.3% FG including 7 straight triple doubles and 10 triple doubles in 11 consecutive games. Truly a remarkable player.

That was 25-26 year old Jordan. And far superior defensive impact as compared to Lebron. And a far more varied offensive game. And more clutch etc. too.

[d.bball.guy]

I thought there would be 25 6 year old Jordan vs 25 6 year old LeBron.

[Magic Vinsanity]

Kobe Bryant at 25 (2003-2004) - 24pts / 5.5 boards / 5.1 assists / .438 FG% per game

Lebron James at 25 (2009-2010) - 29.7 pts / 7.3 boards / 8.6 assists / .503 FG% per game

Michael Jordan at 25 (1988-1989) - 32.5 pts / 8 boards / 8 assists / .538 FG% per game

Jordan > Lebron > Kobe at 25.

Plus Jordan played in an era where the league was much more stacked with talent, Jordan played against MUCH tougher opponents than LeB*tch.

[mananmater]

Well this will always be controversial, truth is both (one is) are or were the best scorers and defenders and most versatile players in the league at the time, jordan 20 years ago, and lebron now, although, believe what you want, lebron is more capable athleticaly, and its easier for him to break stature records, this is obvious, and theres no question lbj is the leagues most valuable player currently.

[Tide]

MJ is better by leaps and bounds, but with that being said a 1v1 game could go LeBron's way due to his size and stength.

[Papaya Petee]

I don't agree with most opinions but I am not going to bother arguing because Jordan wins every single debate ever.

However, I would like to say that in fact 1999-2004 defenses were the best, as top players were limited to their lowest scoring averages in primes, and defensive ratings were lower.

And comparing Kobe at 25 in 2003-2004 is absolutely dumb. He had Shaq, Payton, Malone on his team, he was injured, and had the rape trial. Why not use a 2004 year old Kobe who put up 30\7\6\2\1?