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Old 05-20-2013, 07:07 PM   #226
K Xerxes
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Default Re: #apples2oranges

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Originally Posted by Ne 1
Hakeem was declining after '95, he got embarrassed in the Sonics series (even though, Seattle got away with illegal defense that would be legal nowadays). So was Robinson, Barkely was never the same after leaving Phoenix and actually started declining around '94. Shaq was the best player (even though he won't be remembered as such) in the era but Melo on that Bulls team (winning championships and all while shooting <42% in the finals...twice) would be remembered as the best in the league.

I lol'd, pretty hard.
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Old 05-20-2013, 07:29 PM   #227
Nevaeh
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Default Re: #apples2oranges

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Originally Posted by Ne 1
The stars aligned perfectly for Jordan in that era. The NBA declined greatly after 1988. The NBA expanded way too fast and competition at the top suffered, It was the perfect opportunity for a "GOAT" level player to step up and scoop up the championships in the post Magic/Bird era. The East was nearly as bad as it was in the early 00s...seriously, you could beat barely above .500 teams in the East (as Jordan did in '91) on your way to a championship.

Mike had his own stage because Magic had HIV, Bird had a broke back, and the Pistons and Sixers were just old and depleted. All the greats and legendary teams were aged out by the time Mike was ready to contend. Not his fault. But lets tell it like it is. Big reason why Jordan is widely vied as the greatest ever. He was the greatest player in his era by FAR since all the other legends who would have challenged his throne were all retired or old, nobody to be measured against him.

People remember 90s as better than they actually were, I should know, I grew up remembering 90s as the golden era...now though? I look back at the laughable perimeter talent and even worse competition at the top of the league (even the center talent declined greatly post-'95). Is it even a question that during the "second threepeat era" that Melo would be the best player in league from 96-'98 (in the absence of Jordan)?


Dude, just stop it. You're in your early f@cking 20s, yet you expect someone to believe that you remember anything about 90s basketball?



And no clown, you don't just "step in, and scoop up" championships, no matter what conference you're playing in. You compete for them, just like every team in the League does. The fact that Jordan won 6 against the "superior west" also doesn't do the point you're trying to make any favors either.........

or whoever the hell it was that you copied and pasted this tripe from............over and over and over again.............

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Old 05-20-2013, 08:03 PM   #228
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Default Re: #apples2oranges

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Originally Posted by Jacks3
8-10 Championships? Really?

It's really not all that ridiculous if you look at it objectively. Jordan spent 6 years with real championship caliber talent around him, and he won 6 championships on those 6 years. You think it's ridiculous to hypothesize that he'd win a couple more given the 7-8 more chances that Kobe had?
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Old 05-22-2013, 12:39 PM   #229
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Default Re: #apples2oranges

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Originally Posted by Poochymama
It's really not all that ridiculous if you look at it objectively. Jordan spent 6 years with real championship caliber talent around him, and he won 6 championships on those 6 years. You think it's ridiculous to hypothesize that he'd win a couple more given the 7-8 more chances that Kobe had?

Here are my thoughts on the comparison. And since Kobe played more years, I'll give him an advantage where he starts in Jordan's position at ages where he was better, plus it makes it easier since Kobe's last year would've been 1998 with the Bulls so it better aligns. Jordan still starts in 97 though since the topic is about him being in the same career path and would have the apparent "burden" of playing with Shaq. I'm taking into account their injuries, off the court distractions, etc. Keep in mind, there careers overlap a bit in 97 and 98.

1982 - 1997 Kobe (No playoffs)
1983 - 1998 Kobe (No playoffs)
1984 - 1999 Kobe (No playoffs)
1985 - 2000 Kobe (No playoffs) (Hakeem-ROY)
1986 - 2001 Kobe (8th seed first round exit vs Celtics, scoring title)
1987 - 2002 Kobe (8th seed first round exit vs Celtics, scoring title)
1988 - 2003 Kobe (7th seed first round exit vs Pistons, scoring title) (Bird-MVP)
1989 - 2004 Kobe (No playoffs)
1990 - 2005 Kobe (6th seed first round exit vs. Celtics)
1991 - 2006 Kobe (1st seed Championship vs. Lakers, FMVP, MVP, scoring title)
1992 - 2007 Kobe (1st seed Championship vs. Blazers, MVP, scoring title)
1993 - 2008 Kobe (2nd seed ECF exit vs. Knicks) (Knicks over Suns in Finals)
1994 - 2009 Kobe (1st seed Championship vs. Rockets, FMVP)
1995 - 2010 Kobe (2nd seed ECSF exit vs. Knicks)
1996 - 2011 Kobe (1st seed ECF exit vs. Magic) (Magic over Sonics in Finals, Robinson-MVP)
1997 - 2012 Kobe, 1985 Jordan (2nd seed Lakers championship vs. 2nd seed Bulls) (Shaq-FMVP)
1998 - 2013 Kobe, 1986 Jordan (5th seed Bulls ECSF exit vs. Pacers, 2nd seed Lakers championship vs. Pacers, FMVP) (Malone-MVP)
1999 - 1987 Jordan (1st seed Lakers championship vs. Knicks) (Shaq-FMVP, Shaq-MVP)
2000 - 1988 Jordan (1st seed Lakers championship vs. Pacers) (Shaq-FMVP)
2001 - 1989 Jordan (1st seed Lakers championship vs. 76ers, FMVP, MVP)
2002 - 1990 Jordan (1st seed Lakers championship vs. Nets, scoring title) (Shaq-FMVP)
2003 - 1991 Jordan (1st seed Lakers championship vs. Nets, FMVP, MVP)
2004 - 1992 Jordan (1st seed Lakers championship vs. Pistons, FMVP, MVP, scoring title)
2005 - 1993 Jordan (6th seed WCSF exit vs. Spurs, MVP, scoring title)
2006 - 1994 Jordan (retired)
2007 - 1995 Jordan (No playoffs)
2008 - 1996 Jordan (1st seed Lakers Finals loss vs. Celtics, MVP, scoring title)
2009 - 1997 Jordan (1st seed Lakers championship vs. Magic, FMVP)
2010 - 1998 Jordan (1st seed Lakers championship vs. Celtics, FMVP)

I know it doesn't look very organized but I have:

Kobe - 3x champ, 4x Finalist, 2x MVP, 3x FMVP, 5x scoring champ
Jordan - 10x champ, 11x Finalist, 5x MVP, 6x FMVP, 4x scoring champ

Now I would agree that some are arguable, so I would give them the following ranges:

Kobe - 3x-5x champ, 3x-5x Finalist, 3x-5x FMVP, 2x-3x MVP, 3x-6x scoring champ
Jordan - 8x-11x champ, 9x-11x Finalist, 4x-8x FMVP, 3x-5x MVP, 2x-4x scoring champ.

I didn't look to deep into the FMVP for Jordan and Shaq, but I'm going to assume they just split their's. You can argue Kobe's legacy might look better then it currently is, but I think the gap between Jordan and Kobe is clearly perceived as wider.
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