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Old 03-22-2013, 11:12 AM   #3976
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Default Re: 2012-2013 English Premier League Thread (La Liga, Serie A, etc.)

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Originally Posted by Jasi
Come to think of it, we already spoke about this and you mentioned Laudrup some time ago. Technically I agree they look very similar, but tactically Laudrup was surely more offensive.
Yup, I think I remember that as well. Sorry for my broken-recordness Iniesta is more versatile than Laudrup was, that's for sure. Laudrup was confined to trequartista (centered or slightly on the left), or rarely as support striker (not an ideal position for him imo), while Iniesta can play any position from CM onwards (except for striker).
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Old 03-22-2013, 11:14 AM   #3977
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Default Re: 2012-2013 English Premier League Thread (La Liga, Serie A, etc.)

Well when you think about it, only americans do all time ranking like this and care about them anyway, in their sports nba, nfl or baseball... in europe this is not really popular in any sport, except some GOAT talk or talk about the GOAT of some team, making lists of all time or current players is very rare.
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Old 03-22-2013, 11:24 AM   #3978
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Default Re: 2012-2013 English Premier League Thread (La Liga, Serie A, etc.)

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Originally Posted by alenleomessi
Well when you think about it, only americans do all time ranking like this and care about them anyway, in their sports nba, nfl or baseball... in europe this is not really popular in any sport, except some GOAT talk or talk about the GOAT of some team, making lists of all time or current players is very rare.

This is true and it's expectable from a culture so focused on competition.
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Old 03-22-2013, 11:55 AM   #3979
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Default Re: 2012-2013 English Premier League Thread (La Liga, Serie A, etc.)

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Originally Posted by Mr Clutch Melo

Shaky tiers.

Messi should be in the GOAT tier. When counting his accomplishments, I don't see how a guy like Cruyff can be there and not him. His individual skill can be argued that others on that list are on par or better than him (not too many though), but his team accomplishments are hard to ignore.

Biggest omission though is... WTH IS CASILLAS? Arguably GOAT keeper. Should be godtier. Has won virtually everything, had epic moments, and if you include Buffon and Kahn, Casillas at least should be mentioned. But if there was a GK to include in GOAT tier it would be him.

Also Iniesta is absolutely not better than let's say Del Piero, FIGO (cmon), prime Kaka (wow), Shevchenko, etc. I'm not even sure he's better than Stoickhov or Hagi. I would even put R.Carlos, Pirlo, and Hierro ahead of him. It's just too striking to see Iniesta among names such as Rivaldo, Henry, Baggio, Romario, etc. when (skillswise) he is not better than let's say a Djorkaeff or Beckham. These guys were as brilliant as he is in their own way.

Bebeto was as good as Iniesta is and he's not even mentioned.

There are other mistakes that make me shake my head, but that Iniesta bump was a bit too out there to ignore.
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Old 03-22-2013, 12:11 PM   #3980
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Default Re: 2012-2013 English Premier League Thread (La Liga, Serie A, etc.)

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Originally Posted by Rojogaqu11

Also Iniesta is absolutely not better than let's say Del Piero, FIGO (cmon), prime Kaka (wow), Shevchenko, etc. I'm not even sure he's better than Stoickhov or Hagi. I would even put R.Carlos, Pirlo, and Hierro ahead of him. It's just too striking to see Iniesta among names such as Rivaldo, Henry, Baggio, Romario, etc. when (skillswise) he is not better than let's say a Djorkaeff or Beckham. These guys were as brilliant as he is in their own way.

Bebeto was as good as Iniesta is and he's not even mentioned.

There are other mistakes that make me shake my head, but that Iniesta bump was a bit too out there to ignore.
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Old 03-22-2013, 01:59 PM   #3981
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Default Re: 2012-2013 English Premier League Thread (La Liga, Serie A, etc.)

Laudrup and Zidane are my favorites along with Raul - who for me is better than many in without a doubt in the same class as Henry and Ronaldo.
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Old 03-22-2013, 03:02 PM   #3982
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Default Re: 2012-2013 English Premier League Thread (La Liga, Serie A, etc.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rojogaqu11
Shaky tiers.

Messi should be in the GOAT tier. When counting his accomplishments, I don't see how a guy like Cruyff can be there and not him. His individual skill can be argued that others on that list are on par or better than him (not too many though), but his team accomplishments are hard to ignore.

Biggest omission though is... WTH IS CASILLAS? Arguably GOAT keeper. Should be godtier. Has won virtually everything, had epic moments, and if you include Buffon and Kahn, Casillas at least should be mentioned. But if there was a GK to include in GOAT tier it would be him.

Also Iniesta is absolutely not better than let's say Del Piero, FIGO (cmon), prime Kaka (wow), Shevchenko, etc. I'm not even sure he's better than Stoickhov or Hagi. I would even put R.Carlos, Pirlo, and Hierro ahead of him. It's just too striking to see Iniesta among names such as Rivaldo, Henry, Baggio, Romario, etc. when (skillswise) he is not better than let's say a Djorkaeff or Beckham. These guys were as brilliant as he is in their own way.

Bebeto was as good as Iniesta is and he's not even mentioned.

There are other mistakes that make me shake my head, but that Iniesta bump was a bit too out there to ignore.

edit:agree on the iniesta part tho hagi,henry,rivaldo,figo ,kaka all day over iniesta
but messi being in the goat tier and not cruyff is silly

Last edited by brownmamba00 : 03-22-2013 at 03:07 PM.
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Old 03-22-2013, 07:38 PM   #3983
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Default Re: 2012-2013 English Premier League Thread (La Liga, Serie A, etc.)

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Originally Posted by blablabla

I don't know if you disagree on all that or just something specific, but that's exactly the face I made when I saw Iniesta among those I named.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brownmamba00
but messi being in the goat tier and not cruyff is silly

I didn't mean that Cruyff isn't deserving, but that Messi can be mentioned with him as far as accomplishments and overall skill, etc.

Also if Batistuta is among the greats, then Klinsmann should be mentioned. A. Brehme is there and not JK?

Others that are missing are Weah (big ), and you could argue guys like Cannavaro, Suker and even Owen could be at least mentioned, if you got guys like Nesta and Davis there.
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Old 03-22-2013, 08:34 PM   #3984
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Default Re: 2012-2013 English Premier League Thread (La Liga, Serie A, etc.)

you could argue iniesta is as skilled as ronnie... whoever said he is not as skilled as baggio and haggi should kill himself immediately.
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Old 03-22-2013, 10:56 PM   #3985
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Default Re: 2012-2013 English Premier League Thread (La Liga, Serie A, etc.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by alenleomessi
you could argue iniesta is as skilled as ronnie... whoever said he is not as skilled as baggio and haggi should kill himself immediately.

You seem a bit biased though. I can see Iniesta on the same level as Hagi, but Baggio was better than Iniesta. Baggio was arguably the best player in the world at some point. He was the leader in most of his teams, and he was the centerpiece of that 90's Italy. But Iniesta without Messi and Xavi wouldn't have the same success, or even be thought of as a top player in the world. In the national team, aside from his moment in the finals, he's been just one of the many great players on the team.

It sounds like I'm hating on him but I'm just looking at these other great players in their own right, and Iniesta, while a great player, is not on the level of the greatest players of each generation. Skills are a very subjective aspect to measure but how is Iniesta better than Figo, Kaka, Del Piero? or even Shevchenko, Stoickhov, Cantona, etc.? I don't see in what way he's better than them. Anyone who watched football the last 3 decades would see this.

Iniesta should be mentioned (at most) among players like R.Carlos, Zanetti, Eto'o, Ibrahimovic, etc. Excellent, very skilled and iconic players but not among the best when comparing through history.

In basketball, it would be like placing a great player like Bosh on the same level as even greater players like Ewing, Garnett, or Webber.
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Old 03-23-2013, 06:30 AM   #3986
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Default Re: 2012-2013 English Premier League Thread (La Liga, Serie A, etc.)

skills is not only tricks and joggling with the ball like ronnie and the other brazilians did... i know when someone says skills first thing that comes to mind is those crazy brazilians and their joga bonito... skills is more than that.. its intelligence and knowing what to do with the ball the minute you touch it.. just type iniesta skills on youtube you will see stuff that hasnt been done by other players


as for baggio being the best player of his time, im not so sure about it, when he played maradona was already done and it was a weak era for football anyway, now you have Messi and C.R who are better than anyone from the time Baggio played...

And iniesta doesnt depend on xavi and sure as hell doesnt depend on messi.. you could argue that he would even be a better player if those two didnt play with him, he would have more room and would be the first star of the team.. his only flaw is that he is not much of goalscorer but as we know he is one clutch muthaf*cka

Last edited by alenleomessi : 03-23-2013 at 06:32 AM.
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Old 03-23-2013, 06:53 AM   #3987
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Default Re: 2012-2013 English Premier League Thread (La Liga, Serie A, etc.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasi
This is true and it's expectable from a culture so focused on competition.
Competitive culture is a bad thing now?

It's better to be competitive and motivated to succeed then to be happy drowning in your own piss and shit like many Eastern European and mediterranean countries seem to be.
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Old 03-23-2013, 07:16 AM   #3988
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Default Re: 2012-2013 English Premier League Thread (La Liga, Serie A, etc.)

The Height of Cantenaccio in Serie A a weak era for football? Jesus. You had to be a genius to play and become a star against those defenses, not like the pathetic ones we see today. Baggio was without doubt the best player in the world for an extended period of time ; a world with Matthaus, Laudrup , Guulit ,and most of all Romario, that was not simply something that was given to him.

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Old 03-23-2013, 08:24 AM   #3989
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Default Re: 2012-2013 English Premier League Thread (La Liga, Serie A, etc.)

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Originally Posted by Rubio2Gasol
The Height of Cantenaccio in Serie A a weak era for football? Jesus. You had to be a genius to play and become a star against those defenses, not like the pathetic ones we see today. Baggio was without doubt the best player in the world for an extended period of time ; a world with Matthaus, Laudrup , Guulit ,and most of all Romario, that was not simply something that was given to him.
Like i said it was a weak era. Except Romario who was overrated anyway, all the others werent anything special really... You mention Laudrup, now we have Iniesta who is a much better version of him, and he is not even a top 2 player in the world. Weak era. Fact.
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Old 03-23-2013, 03:31 PM   #3990
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Default Re: 2012-2013 English Premier League Thread (La Liga, Serie A, etc.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Young
Competitive culture is a bad thing now?

It's better to be competitive and motivated to succeed then to be happy drowning in your own piss and shit like many Eastern European and mediterranean countries seem to be.
when did i say it is a bad thing?
defensive much?
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