Not only was Jordan more skilled than Lebron, but more athletic

[3ba11]

Hmm. Then I guess it would surprise you that the Celtics took and made the most spot up 3s of any team in the league last year by a large margin.

May also surprise you that the Lakers were way higher on the team assist rankings than the Celtics.

It's funny that you guys even mention the Lakers because they haven't developed great chemistry is 6 years now!!.. This adds to previous tenures of bad chemistry, and therefore provides a big sample to show that Lebron cannot develop great chemistry - this is further supported by him producing perennial losers with every team instead of great teams that mostly win for a material stretch of time (like 5 years).

So again, unlike the teams of expert jumpshooters (Tatum), or fundamental bigs (Jokic), high-scoring point guards aka "ball-dominators" like Lebron, Luka, SGA, Harden and Westbrook never produced great chemistry or dominant teams that ran the table in the playoffs... It's a skillset thing, so since ball-dominators cannot produce dominant teams, we know that Luka could never produce a dominant team with great chemistry like these Celtics..

In addition to never producing dominant playoff teams, ball-dominators never produce "great" teams that mostly won over a material period, which contrasts with expert jumpshooters (Curry, MJ) or fundamental bigs (Duncan, Kareem)... Again, this is a skillset thing, where ball-dominators impose spot-up roles and therefore weak chemistry/teams, while jumpshooters or bigs allow the ball to move more and have higher-assist teams in general.

Btw, if we just switched Luka and Tatum suddenly, neither team would make the Finals due to the initial cratering of chemistry and adjustment - one or both teams could easily fall off and struggle in perpetuity - it's hard to say - Tatum isn't dominant enough to win with a wide swathe of players like Curry, Kobe, etc, while Luka is a ball-dominator, so he can't have great teams with anyone anyway.

[ShawkFactory]

Hmm. Then I guess it would surprise you that the Celtics took and made the most spot up 3s of any team in the league last year by a large margin.

May also surprise you that the Lakers were way higher on the team assist rankings than the Celtics.

I guess these things were a surprise..

[3ba11]

I guess these things were a surprise..

It seemed like some basic shit that wasn't worth responding to... Ball movement gets more and better spot-ups and WITHOUT ball-domination - everyone touches the ball and then someone shoots a spot-up (5-man basketball), versus a ball-dominator dribbling and then kicking it out to a shooter (1 or 2-man basketball)..

We know that the spot-ups achieved via ball movement will outgun ball-dominant offenses in the playoffs, such as the Nuggets, Spurs, Warriors, Mavs, Magic or Celtics outgunning Lebron or Luka's ball-dominant offenses - so the historical record tells a clear story of ball-dominators being perennial losers and getting outgunned by ball movement..

It should be noted that 5-man basketball and zippy ball movement wears down defenses and leaves them less capacity for offense, while ball-domination lets a defense rest, so they are relatively fresher to "get hot" on offense.. The Nuggets, Spurs, Warriors, etc "get hot" after a while because they get to rest and stay relatively fresh against the ball-domination.. It's called "winning the attrition battle" and "the best defense is a good offense" - these are tenets of all competition, and ball movement abides by them, while ball-dominance fails at them.

[ShawkFactory]

Yea…I don’t think you’ve ever watched the Celtics

[Full Court]

Yea…I don’t think you’ve ever watched the Celtics

3ball actually has a point here. Not all assists are equal, nor does the number of assists necessarily reflect good team ball movement. A lot of times ball dominators will have high assist numbers because they'll dribble out the shot clock and then pass to someone who's going to have to take a quick shot. When it goes in, the passer gets the assist, but it's not a great way to play winning ball. Examples of this are James Harden, Luka Doncic, Trae Young, and Lebron (when he's playing point guard). All three get high assist numbers, but they're many times not GOOD assists. They're just forcing teammates to take quick shots because they used up too much clock.

[3ba11]

Yea…I don’t think you’ve ever watched the Celtics

I don't have to watch because I know what stats to look at:

Assisted Rate (percentage of field goals that were assisted by teammates, aka "off-ball")

2024 TATUM REGULAR SEASON........ 40%
2024 LUKA'. REGULAR SEASON........ 22%

2024 TATUM PLAYOFFS.................... 47%
2024 LUKA'. PLAYOFFS.................... 17%

So Tatum offers the Celtics two or three times the capacity for ball movement than Luka offers.. When Tatum is going off for 40, the ball is still moving and teammates are assisting him, while Luka's scoring is unassisted and teammates become spot-up shooters, aka "corner dudes".. This yields weaker teams and bad fits with stars like Brunson, Porzingas, Love, Bosh, Ingram, Westbrook, Hughes, Wade, Kuzma, IT, and many more.

[ShawkFactory]

There are other stats that show the Celtics were 17th in assists last year and 24th in passes made per game.

[3ba11]

There are other stats that show the Celtics were 17th in assists last year and 24th in passes made per game.

Tatum's Celtics were 14th and 7th in assists for the last 2 seasons, compared to 19th and 28th for Luka's Mavs.

So your numbers were wrong

https://www.basketball-reference.com...m_and_opponent
https://www.basketball-reference.com...m_and_opponent

Again, expert jumpshooters have higher assisted rates, so they allow better ball movement, fits and teams, while ball-dominators like Luka, Lebron, Harden, SGA and Westbrook cannot have dominant teams that run the table in the playoffs, or great teams that mostly win over a material stretch, like 5 years.

[ShawkFactory]

Tatum's Celtics were 14th and 7th in assists for the last 2 seasons, compared to 19th and 28th for Luka's Mavs.

So your numbers were wrong

https://www.basketball-reference.com...m_and_opponent
https://www.basketball-reference.com...m_and_opponent

Again, expert jumpshooters have higher assisted rates, so they allow better ball movement, fits and teams, while ball-dominators like Luka, Lebron, Harden, SGA and Westbrook cannot have dominant teams that run the table in the playoffs, or great teams that mostly win over a material stretch, like 5 years.

My numbers WERE wrong. Boston was 15th. Therefore yours were too.

The Lakers were 7th.

[3ba11]

My numbers WERE wrong. Boston was 15th. Therefore yours were too.

The Lakers were 7th.

Boston was 14th just like I said, and the Lakers were 5th - I provided links, while you're just stating debunked information and incorrect rankings.

And who cares about old Lebron because he isn't the clear-cut top dog on the Lakers anymore and teammates make higher All-NBA than him.. When Lebron was the clear-cut top dog and it was "bron-ball", his teams had low assists nearly every year and his teams average 15th for his career.

History shows that high-scoring point guards, aka ball-dominators like Luka, Lebron, Harden, SGA, or Westbrook impose spot-up roles and lower teammate assists, so their TEAMS generally have low assists and less ball movement than the teams that beat them (Nuggets, Spurs, Warriors, Celtics), who are led by expert jumpshooters or fundamental bigs.

[ShawkFactory]

Boston was 14th just like I said, and the Lakers were 5th - I provided links, while you're just stating debunked information and incorrect rankings.

And who cares about old Lebron because he isn't the clear-cut top dog on the Lakers anymore and teammates make higher All-NBA than him.. When Lebron was the clear-cut top dog and it was "bron-ball", his teams had low assists nearly every year and his teams average 15th for his career.

History shows that high-scoring point guards, aka ball-dominators like Luka, Lebron, Harden, SGA, or Westbrook impose spot-up roles and lower teammate assists, so their TEAMS generally have low assists and less ball movement than the teams that beat them (Nuggets, Spurs, Warriors, Celtics), who are led by expert jumpshooters or fundamental bigs.

You.

[3ba11]

You.

As soon as the Finals began and everyone saw the Celtics' zippy ball movement, it was clear that the Mavericks ' ball-domination had no chance:

2024 FINALS - Team Assists Per Game

Boston....... 24.2
Mavs ......... 16.8

Similarly, Lebron has massive deficits in team assists for all his playoff losses in the last 10 years.. Deficits in team assists is a hallmark of the high-scoring point guard, aka ball-dominator

[PistonsFan#21]

itt we confirm that MJ was a better combo-leaper and his 4.3 speed is obviously a lot better than Lebron could ever do - the best itt shows Lebron matching the fastest football player at his weight (football is a faster sport), and this speed was 4.55, except and this guy was 6 inches shorter than Lebron and probably 20-30 pounds lighter (250 vs 280 potentially).

Would Jordan be even faster if he was 5'11 210lbs instead of 6'6 210lbs?

[Soundwave]

There hasn't been another athlete quite like Jordan ever since him. Lots of wannabes and lots of guys who can jump high, but the combination of explosive speed + hang time and agility in the air I think is still sadly unseen since 1st 3-peat Jordan (he toned it down for the 2nd 3-peat).

Haven't seen anyone like that since 1993, which kinda sucks. It was like watching poetry in motion. Jordan is a freak case of a guy who probably should have been 5'11 at best, who became 6'6 with a huge wing span and a monstrous vertical leap, but then on top of that the strange ability to move and shift one's body in mid-air, which is just something you don't see a lot of. He retained a lot of "little guy speed" but then was blessed with a freak growth spurt and enormous hands some how.

Lots of guys can jump high, it's not just about jumping high, it's about what you do in the air when you're up there, Jordan was just in a class by himself. Even Kobe who tried desperately to copy every little thing about Jordan didn't have that ability really in the air (Kobe was a very good athlete, but not really 1st 3-peat Jordan like definitely a big gap there). Vince Carter was a tremendous dunker, but he wasn't that either, the rest of these guys ain't it either.

Just being a power dunker is not the same, that's more like being the evolution of Dominique Wilkins, Jordan was a different class.