Lebron James - 4 FMVPs - 2nd best Winner of all time

[hold this L]

OP is an example when you have a strong combination of idolization and mental illness.

[BallsOut]

OP is using a very oddly specific criteria for what a “winner” is. Apparently you can lose the nba finals and still be a winner (there have been many finals mvps on the losing team)

Let’s take an objective “winner” criteria and apply it instead.

Top 10 NBA players of all time (NBA finals records wins/losses):
1. Michael Jordan (6/6, 100%)
2. Bill Russell (11/12, 92%)
3. Tim Duncan (5/6, 83%)
4. Kobe Bryant (5/7, 71%)
5. Shaquille O'Neal (4/6, 67%)
6. Kareem Abdul Jabbar (6/10, 60%)
7. Larry Bird (3/5, 60%)
8. Dwyane Wade (3/5, 60%)
9. Magic Johnson (5/9, 56%)
10. James Worthy (3/6, 50%)

Outside looking in:
LeBron James (4/10, 40%)
Wilt Chamberlain (2/6, 33%)
Julius Erving (1/4, 25%)
Jerry West (1/9, 11%)
Elgin Baylor (0/7, 0%)

Thus, rather than being anywhere near the top of the winner group, objectively it appears that Lebron is closer to being associated with a loser/choker category you often hear those other players associated with.

[r15mohd]

OP is using a very oddly specific criteria for what a “winner” is. Apparently you can lose the nba finals and still be a winner (there have been many finals mvps on the losing team)

Let’s take an objective “winner” criteria and apply it instead.

Top 10 NBA players of all time (NBA finals records wins/losses):
1. Michael Jordan (6/6, 100%)
2. Bill Russell (11/12, 92%)
3. Tim Duncan (5/6, 83%)
4. Kobe Bryant (5/7, 71%)
5. Shaquille O'Neal (4/6, 67%)
6. Kareem Abdul Jabbar (6/10, 60%)
7. Larry Bird (3/5, 60%)
8. Dwyane Wade (3/5, 60%)
9. Magic Johnson (5/9, 56%)
10. James Worthy (3/6, 50%)

Outside looking in:
LeBron James (4/10, 40%)
Wilt Chamberlain (2/6, 33%)
Julius Erving (1/4, 25%)
Jerry West (1/9, 11%)
Elgin Baylor (0/7, 0%)

Thus, rather than being anywhere near the top of the winner group, objectively it appears that Lebron is closer to being associated with a loser/choker category you often hear those other players associated with.

havlicek is 100%, so are Ron Harper, Horry, Kerr, Mikan..etc. about 65 players have a perfect win/loss finals to their name

[StrongLurk]

OP is using a very oddly specific criteria for what a “winner” is. Apparently you can lose the nba finals and still be a winner (there have been many finals mvps on the losing team)

Let’s take an objective “winner” criteria and apply it instead.

Top 10 NBA players of all time (NBA finals records wins/losses):
1. Michael Jordan (6/6, 100%)
2. Bill Russell (11/12, 92%)
3. Tim Duncan (5/6, 83%)
4. Kobe Bryant (5/7, 71%)
5. Shaquille O'Neal (4/6, 67%)
6. Kareem Abdul Jabbar (6/10, 60%)
7. Larry Bird (3/5, 60%)
8. Dwyane Wade (3/5, 60%)
9. Magic Johnson (5/9, 56%)
10. James Worthy (3/6, 50%)

Outside looking in:
LeBron James (4/10, 40%)
Wilt Chamberlain (2/6, 33%)
Julius Erving (1/4, 25%)
Jerry West (1/9, 11%)
Elgin Baylor (0/7, 0%)

Thus, rather than being anywhere near the top of the winner group, objectively it appears that Lebron is closer to being associated with a loser/choker category you often hear those other players associated with.

You are using the classic Bron hater/illogical thought that losing before the finals is better than losing in the finals, which invalidates your whole premise.

Winning FMVP is the CORE part of the modern-era GOAT standard. Lebron has more than anyone post-MJ.

[BallsOut]

havlicek is 100%, so are Ron Harper, Horry, Kerr, Mikan..etc. about 65 players have a perfect win/loss finals to their name

They’re all better winners than Lebron James

[StrongLurk]

They’re all better winners than Lebron James

How many FMVPs do the players on your list have? You should write them out for everyone to see.

[Duffy Pratt]

How many FMVPs do the players on your list have? You should write them out for everyone to see.

So everything depends on the votes of 11 guys who, as media members, are pre-disposed to be narrative driven?

Good players do what needs to be done to win. They play for championships, not finals MVPs. Havlicek is a far better winner than LeBron. So was Duncan. So is Curry. It has almost nothing to do with FMVPs. Basketball is a team game. You’ve implied elsewhere that it’s a black mark to Bird that Max won an FMVP, or to Curry that KD won a pair. Or to Magic that Kareem and Worthy did. That betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of the game. Playing for legacy is crap. The whole GOAT discussion is nothing but an unending spewing of that same crap.

[StrongLurk]

So everything depends on the votes of 11 guys who, as media members, are pre-disposed to be narrative driven?

Good players do what needs to be done to win. They play for championships, not finals MVPs. Havlicek is a far better winner than LeBron. So was Duncan. So is Curry. It has almost nothing to do with FMVPs. Basketball is a team game. You’ve implied elsewhere that it’s a black mark to Bird that Max won an FMVP, or to Curry that KD won a pair. Or to Magic that Kareem and Worthy did. That betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of the game. Playing for legacy is crap. The whole GOAT discussion is nothing but an unending spewing of that same crap.

You claim certain individuals are better "winners", yet then in the same post claim "basketball is a team game".

You are contradicting yourself. Go back to the drawing board and come back to me with something better.

[StrongLurk]

Still no valid rebuttals to OP's premise.

Mods - we can close this thread down since we agree Bron is the second best winner in the 3-point era.

[sdot_thadon]

OP is using a very oddly specific criteria for what a “winner” is. Apparently you can lose the nba finals and still be a winner (there have been many finals mvps on the losing team)

Let’s take an objective “winner” criteria and apply it instead.

Top 10 NBA players of all time (NBA finals records wins/losses):
1. Michael Jordan (6/6, 100%)
2. Bill Russell (11/12, 92%)
3. Tim Duncan (5/6, 83%)
4. Kobe Bryant (5/7, 71%)
5. Shaquille O'Neal (4/6, 67%)
6. Kareem Abdul Jabbar (6/10, 60%)
7. Larry Bird (3/5, 60%)
8. Dwyane Wade (3/5, 60%)
9. Magic Johnson (5/9, 56%)
10. James Worthy (3/6, 50%)

Outside looking in:
LeBron James (4/10, 40%)
Wilt Chamberlain (2/6, 33%)
Julius Erving (1/4, 25%)
Jerry West (1/9, 11%)
Elgin Baylor (0/7, 0%)

Thus, rather than being anywhere near the top of the winner group, objectively it appears that Lebron is closer to being associated with a loser/choker category you often hear those other players associated with.

Then go back and ask how many did each of those guys win as the clear best player one the squad and you'll have a clear picture.

[And1AllDay]

when accounting for length of career plus team hops it’s just not very impressive

i agree not impressive mikey jordy broke down quit early, had shortgevity yes true

[3ba11]

10 Finals appearances but only 4 titles = mostly losing

No one cares about the Finals appearances that were achieved by facing Derozan instead of Wade - he diluted his Eastern comp by teaming up with the best players in the conference so he could face lesser guys like Derozan and Oladipo.. So Lebron failed at winning the league 6 times, and only succeeded at winning a diluted conference and then he was immediately lottery out West without AD (and even with AD)...

Ultimately, his many Finals losses by big margins confirm that he wouldn't make the Finals from the other conference and simply won a conference that was diluted via collusion of it's best players.

[Duffy Pratt]

10 Finals appearances but only 4 titles = mostly losing

No one cares about the Finals appearances that were achieved by facing Derozan instead of Wade - he diluted his Eastern comp by teaming up with the best players in the conference so he could face lesser guys like Derozan and Oladipo.. So Lebron failed at winning the league 6 times, and only succeeded at winning a diluted conference and then he was immediately lottery out West without AD (and even with AD)...

Ultimately, his many Finals losses by big margins confirm that he wouldn't make the Finals from the other conference and simply won a conference that was diluted via collusion of it's best players.

Not making the finals is also losing. By this standard, being the man on your team and winning the championship most of the time, there have only been two winners in NBA history: Russell and Mikan. Every other top player lost more than he won. (Havlicek is 50/50).

[StrongLurk]

10 Finals appearances but only 4 titles = mostly losing

No one cares about the Finals appearances that were achieved by facing Derozan instead of Wade - he diluted his Eastern comp by teaming up with the best players in the conference so he could face lesser guys like Derozan and Oladipo.. So Lebron failed at winning the league 6 times, and only succeeded at winning a diluted conference and then he was immediately lottery out West without AD (and even with AD)...

Ultimately, his many Finals losses by big margins confirm that he wouldn't make the Finals from the other conference and simply won a conference that was diluted via collusion of it's best players.

I've already debunked these statements of yours. Your logic is wrong because you are saying it's better to lose BEFORE than finals than to lose in the finals. Lebron having 10 finals appearances and 4 FMVPs is better than having only 4 finals appearances and 4 FMVPs.

Again Mods - there are no valid rebuttals so far to the OP. We can close this thread out.

[John8204]

I mean he's got the most playoff games won ever record by a fairly large margin....and he's closing in on Kareem's game record.

I don't quite get why "the finals" means so much when you consider he made the conference and NBA finals so many times in his career.